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Kant stated in Critique of Pure Reason, pg. 273:

What our understanding acquires through this concept of a noumenon, is a negative extension; that is to say, understanding is not limited through sensibility; on the contrary, it itself limits sensibility by applying the term noumena to things in themselves (things not regarded as appearances). But in so doing it at the same time sets limits to itself, recognising that it cannot know these noumena through any of the categories, and that it must therefore think them only under the title of an unknown something.

I'm not sure whether Kant meant to say that the 'thing-in-itself' limits understanding or that our concept of the 'thing-in-itself' (which he called 'noumenon') limits understanding.

C.S. Peirce said things in several places that seem to align his own view with the before-mentioned Kantian view:

The Ding an sich, however, can neither be indicated nor found. Consequently, no proposition can refer to it, and nothing true or false can be predicated of it. Therefore, all reference to it must be thrown out as meaningless surplusage (CP, 5.525).

Peirce even stated in the same collection:

His [i.e. Kant's] limitation of them [i.e. space, time, and the twelve categories] to possible experience is pragmaticism in the general sense.

What makes Peirce especially difficult to interpret in a linear way however is that he considered himself a scholastic realist:

I am myself a scholastic realist of a somewhat extreme stripe (CP, 5.470).

In what way did Peirce think the 'thing-in-itself' acted as limit to human understanding? How much of this did he borrow from Kant and if he diverged from Kant, in what way?

Byday
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  • He is saying that the *understanding* (not the thing-in-itself) limits itself by recognizing the thing-in-itself as being beyond its grasp. For any given phenomenal object, we can only know it as phenomenal and not at all as it is in itself. –  Nov 04 '17 at 18:40
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    Nitpick: We can know things only as they appear and cannot know anything about the thing-in-itself, not even whether it appears exactly as it "really" is, which is very well possible, as in the end it "is" only insofar it is as a thing appearing. One should not forget that Kant himself was more clear later on (opus posthumum) regarding things essentially always appearing and only in appearance being a thing proper. – Philip Klöcking Nov 04 '17 at 20:30
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    @PhilipKlöcking. The idea of appearing "as it really is" is incomprehensible to me because it refers to it as it is *independent* of any appearance. I have no means of attaching any meaning to that, especially since it appears to be contradictory — to appear as it does not appear at the same time and in the same sense. I might think of knowing the thing-in-itself as knowing it as God knows it, but that is completely beyond my conceptual framework. –  Nov 04 '17 at 20:50
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    @PédeLeão: To be more exact - Kant himself was quite ambiguous at times, but many scholars looking at all of the opus (not just CPR), not the least of them Guyer, agree that the thing-in-itself has no ontological status whatsoever (i.e. is no *thing*, or *real* at all!), but only, as a concept, tries to point out that speaking of things, we should be clear that we speak of things appearing. It fulfills a *logical* function and nothing more should be attached to it. Reality, world, etc. are all concepts that only include objects of experience (or make them possible). For Kant, that is. – Philip Klöcking Nov 04 '17 at 21:06
  • @PhilipKlöcking In your opinion, what distinguishes Kant's noumenon from his phenomena? If noumenon is not a 'thing-in-itself' since 'thing-in-itself' cannot enter the rational sphere (and, apparently, noumenon can since it limits our understanding of phenomena), would noumenon be a species of phenomena? – Byday Nov 04 '17 at 21:13
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    See Kant-Lexikon (Willaschek et al), p. 1688 (I translate/paraphrase here): Noumenon is only permissible in a negative understanding (CPR B307ff.;A252;A255f./B311f.;A286f./B342f.), which means in abstraction from the "manner of our intuition of it" (CPR, B307). Since you cannot refer to real objects without intuition, noumena in this understanding are mere "things of thought" [Gedankendinge] (CPR A290ff./B347f.; see also 22:31f.;22:36; 22:414), i.e. internal representations of non-contradictory concepts, and can only be used problematically, (1/2) – Philip Klöcking Nov 04 '17 at 21:41
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    i.e. as a concept that "that contains no contradiction but [whose] [...] objective reality can in no way be cognized [dessen objective Realität aber auf keine Weise erkannt werden kann]" (CPR A254/B310; see A256/B311;A286/B343) (2/2) – Philip Klöcking Nov 04 '17 at 21:42
  • @PhilipKlöcking. The idea that things-in-themselves don't really exist must be a misinterpretation. Guyer doesn't suggest any such thing: "Kant calls the 'undetermined object of an empirical intuition' an 'appearance' (A 20/B 34), but by this term he does not – thus far – mean that we have any reason to think that empirical intuitions do not represent things to us as they are in themselves." –  Nov 05 '17 at 01:57
  • I see Kant and Peirce in near agreement as to metaphysics. The ideas that the by reduction the world is a unity that lies beyond the categories of thought is essential to 'nondualism' and both these men seemed to arrive at this notion by analysis but without the understanding of, say, Lao Tsu or Nagarjuna. For the latter two there would not be a limit on knowledge but on intellectually-acquired knowledge, Peirce seems to come closer to this view than Kant. Andrew Robinson's book on the semiotics of Peirce reveals the depth of his ideas and takes them beyond Kant. - –  Nov 05 '17 at 11:41

1 Answers1

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Interpretation of Peirce's realism which grew out of combining Kantian epistemology with scholastic ontology of Duns Scotus (Peirce calls himself "a scholastic realist of a somewhat extreme stripe") is indeed difficult. What makes it even more difficult is that Peirce went through several major reworkings of his "architectonic" without clearly indicating what was kept and what was revised, so it is easy to find statements in his works that appear to be contradictory. It is fair to say, however, that he flatly denies the intelligibility of "things in themselves", as did many others starting with Fichte, "there can be no concept of absolutely incognizable since nothing of this sort occurs in experience... Hence a term can have no such meaning".

But Peirce also rejected Kant's identification of things in themselves with noumena. Pihlström in Peircean Scholastic Realism and Transcendental Arguments argues that Peirce can be understood as naturalizing and pragmatizing Kantian transcendental arguments, and his noumena are projections of "pure reason" downgraded to fallible human knowledge. Due to Kantian scruples Peirce can not adopt a metaphysical realism with already conceptualized world "grasped" by the mind (he rejects what is now called the myth of the Given). On the other hand, he wants a robust notion of truth answerable to independent and demystified reality. The result is a dual picture of reality, first as non-conceptual and encountered through action and reaction (pragmatism), and second as conceptualized through such encounters but only "at the end of inquiry". The inquiry may involve multiple human generations, and potentially even non-human beings, and may never be achieved in actuality, Peirce defends reality of possibilia. The truth is identified with this "final opinion", hence it is not a correspondent truth in any traditional sense. And it is this final opinion that hosts the noumena:

"There is a definite opinion to which the mind of man is, on the whole and in the long run tending. On many questions the final agreement is already reached, on all it will be reached if time enough is given... This final opinion, then, is independent, not indeed of thought, in general, but of all that is arbitrary and individual in thought; is quite independent of how you, or I or any number of men think. Everything, therefore, which will be thought to exist in the final opinion is real, and nothing else...

This theory of reality is instantly fatal to the idea of a thing in itself, - a thing existing independent of all relation to the mind's conception of it. Yet it would by no means forbid, but rather encourage us, to regard the appearances of sense as only signs of the realities. Only, the realities which they represent, would not be the unknowable cause of sensation, but noumena or intelligible conceptions which are the last products of the mental action which is set in motion by sensation". [CP 8.12-13, emphasis Peirce's]

Margolis in The Passing of Peirce's Realism rightly points out that in the absence of metaphysical guarantees it is unclear why the inquiry should converge on any "final opinion". Peirce himself moved from certainty about this to merely "hope" in late years. Aside from being written off as "19th century optimism", the usual defense is pragmatic, this convergence is merely a hypothesis, as the entire corpus of science is hypothetical, albeit confirmed by practice. This is not far from Kant's regulative ideas or neo-Kantian "limit concepts".

Pragmatism even allows Peirce to offer hypothetical metaphysics, which connects his remote noumena to the acting/reacting reality of everyday encounters, see Haack's "Extreme Scholastic Realism:" Its Relevance to Philosophy of Science Today. It posits actions/processes at the core of experienced reality (Secondness), objects are viewed as their conceptual derivatives, and it construes "generals", relations and laws (Thirdness), as manifested in the patterns of actions/reactions. It is they that are the fundamental reality for Peirce:"All that Hume attacked I defend, namely, law as a reality", this is why he calls his realism "of extreme stripe". This relational ontology might raise concerns familiar from dealing with Platonic froms, infinite regress on relations of relations, etc. But for Peirce only some generals are real, which ones is for empirical science to hypothesize and confirm in action, it is not a business of a priori Platonic contemplation with its pure mathematical largesse.

Pihlström suggests that one world/two perspectives (a.k.a. dual aspect) interpretation of Kant is more favorable to finding common ground with Peirce than the traditional phenomenalist interpretation that Peirce accepted. Indeed, this reading is more hospitable to realism since appearances are already real and things-in-themselves are just another aspect of them. Two key differences still remain however. First, Kant's picture is static, we have a fixed transcendental subject confronting a fixed world dressed into a straightjacket of reason's own fixed a priori categories and schemata. There is little epistemic movement in this world beyond clarification of the obscure. Kant can not therefore make the use Peirce has for noumena as happy limits of epistemic evolution, they are static empty posits.

Second, Kant's view of knowledge is absolutist, nothing short of apodictically certain passes the muster, not metaphysics, not chemistry, not psychology. On this standard the chasm between phenomena and noumena is indeed unbridgeable. But on Peirce's pragmatic view even mathematical certainty is fallible, and its difference with the empirically scientific one is of a degree, not kind. Even the "a priori" that frame phenomena are neither a priori nor immutable, they are merely high level hypotheses to be revised eventually. So what Kant cast out as less-than-knowledge aided by practical reason and reflective judgment, is now admitted in full and paves the road from phenomena to noumena. On Peirce's optimistic "hope" the two perspectives merge in the "final opinion".

Conifold
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  • Thanks for your well thought out reply. You briefly state that "Peirce also rejected Kant's identification of things in themselves with noumena." From the passage I used from Kant it seems as though there is wiggle room for how Kant should be interpreted in his identification of the noumenon with the thing-in-itself. One viable interpretation would seem to be that Kant thought noumena were not things-in-themselves but acts of understanding. I'd appreciate it if you could clarify your interpretation of Kant in comparison to Peirce. – Byday Nov 05 '17 at 16:45
  • Wow. I visited the SEP on Pierce after the question was asked, and found a little bit about it in para. 25 or 26, but it left me in complete confusion. Hats off to Byday too for asking this question as an English major!! Great comments above on Kant too. I still don't fully understand this, but I do know that hours of research time have been saved by this Q&A. I have already upvoted this answer, and Bydays question. – Gordon Nov 05 '17 at 17:01
  • @Gordon One thing an English major helps you out with is getting through confusing literature. After reading James Joyce everything else seems crystal clear. I'm in the same boat as you with most of the literature on idealism though. I'm having to mull over a lot parts in Conifold's response. – Byday Nov 05 '17 at 17:08
  • @Byday That's right, I didn't consider Joyce! You should feel right at home here. The part of the answer that is most helpful for me is this... On the other hand, he wants a robust notion of truth answerable to independent and demystified reality. The result is a dual picture of reality, first as non-conceptual and encountered through action and reaction (pragmatism), and second as conceptualized through such encounters but only "at the end of inquiry"... very helpful and significant. – Gordon Nov 05 '17 at 17:23
  • @Byday. *Noumena* signifies the concepts which refer to things-in-themselves. [G. J. Mattey](http://hume.ucdavis.edu/mattey/phi175/phenomlechead.html) explains this well: "[Kant] explained that the concept of a noumenon arises from the fact that we must refer appearances to an *object that appears*, by abstracting from the forms of sensible intuition. This something is the 'substratum of sensibility' or 'transcendental object,' 'the wholly indeterminate concept of something as such' (A253)." –  Nov 05 '17 at 20:34
  • @Byday The most detailed analysis of noumenon/thing-in-itself in Kant I have seen is given by [Palmquist](http://staffweb.hkbu.edu.hk/ppp/ksp1/KSP6.html), who is sympathetic to Allison's one world/two perspectives interpretation. But these are modern readings, and apparently not Peirce's, since he "throws out" thing-in-itself but writes:"*To make a distinction between the true conception of a thing and the thing itself is... only to regard one and the same thing from two different points of view; for the immediate object of thought in a true judgment **is** the reality*" [CP 8.16] – Conifold Nov 05 '17 at 20:54
  • @Conifold Honestly (and I'm sure it's not your fault), I'm even more confused by your comment. I now know what you meant when you said that interpretation of Peirce is difficult. That quote from Peirce makes him sound less like an idealist and more like a direct realist. And it feels like the line between Peirce's interpretation of Kant and the popular/acceptable interpretation of Kant is blurred. I don't really know where your Peirce is reacting according to his interpretation of Kant and where your Peirce is objectively being compared to what Kant thought. – Byday Nov 05 '17 at 23:31
  • @Byday Objective idealism, and that is Peirce's declared position, is a form of realism. But it is hardly direct, "immediate object of thought in a true judgment" refers to the "final opinion", he asserts that there will be no distance between reality "as such" and reality as thought "at the end of inquiry". Interpretation of Kant as asserting an unknowable world behind the curtain of appearances was the popular one in 19th century, and the one Peirce dealt with. Pihlström explicitly advocates Allison-inspired bringing together of Kant and Peirce, but required interpretations are revisionary. – Conifold Nov 06 '17 at 00:03
  • @Conifold So, in your opinion, would it be more accurate to describe Peirce as a realist who saw the human condition as ongoing inquiry to become closer to reality or as an idealist who saw reality as a necessary concept for the process of inquiry? – Byday Nov 06 '17 at 00:16
  • @Byday Neither. The interesting thing about Peirce is that he was one of the first to remove this dichotomy, and much less mystically than Hegel. This was taken up by Sellars, Putnam, McDowell, etc. Conceptually, reality is mind-dependent, framed by the mind as Kant thought, but conceptual reflection is not everything. There is for Peirce direct interaction with reality as Secondness, but it produces no conceptual intake, only constrains our conceptual productions. So there is no getting "closer to reality" in the sense of correspondence, there is nothing to get closer to. – Conifold Nov 06 '17 at 00:39
  • On the other hand, Peirce still wanted convergence in some sense. Margolis argues that he wanted it so much that he even lapsed into metaphysical realism (albeit evolutionary one) about real generals when reconciling his "final opinion" with his austere epistemology. He writes that Peirce's position "*does not explain the relationship between thinking and reality; it only claims to identify reality's cognitive accessibility... It does not show why we should believe that real generals are cognitively accessible though independent of the human mind.*" Dewey dropped the independence as untenable. – Conifold Nov 06 '17 at 00:51
  • @Conifold "The interesting thing about Peirce is that he was one of the first to remove this dichotomy." What dichotomy are you specifically referring to? – Byday Nov 06 '17 at 01:36
  • Important difference, especially in regards to the topic at hand: There are two kinds of limiting concepts in (neo-)kantian thought. One positively signifying the outermost limit of reality (e.g. regulative ideas), the other one negatively determining all reality (one of them being noumenon, others are intellectual intuition and holy will). All of them are "mere things of thought" [Gedankendinge], and can only be used problematically due to lack of sensual intuitions (see comments on question), but it is only the latter ones that lack any positive relation to experience. – Philip Klöcking Nov 06 '17 at 06:52
  • If you like, one kind is a necessary idea of reason, completing experience, the other one is critical self-limitation of understanding, negatively determining the objects of reality and philosophy in general – Philip Klöcking Nov 06 '17 at 06:56
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    @Byday The Kantian one you mentioned, between metaphysical realism and transcendental idealism (Kant's use of "idealism" is non-traditional, it is closer to what is now called anti-realism). I added a passage on comparing Peirce to Allison's interpretation that you seem to favor, hopefully it would help. – Conifold Nov 06 '17 at 19:49