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Is the epistemic regress infinite or finite? It is often assumed to be infinite, but was there any discussion about how some epistemic regress may not be infinite in certain cases, or a endpoint where everything is explained and no further question within the same epistemic line can b?

Sayaman
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  • The Munchausen Trilemma, says it can take three forms: finite, back to some axiomatic basis, which is actually what has been generally assumed; infinite, but only due to circularity, which gives one some footing, but no basis -- you can cover the domain to be explained, because it is limited, but no viewpoint is best; or it is infinite and there is unlimited variation is how things may be connected. Throughout most of history, we have not assumed that last one. That is a new thing. – hide_in_plain_sight May 27 '21 at 16:41
  • I think this relates: ' “Why ask why” and its scions' https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/79366/why-ask-why-and-its-scions/79438#79438 Fundamentally: "The meaning and purpose of dancing is the dance." - Alan Watts – CriglCragl May 27 '21 at 18:01

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An explanation is analogous to data compression. We have a large amount of data, that we explain with a short, simple rule. For example, you may plot a lot of (x, y) points and draw a regression line y = Ax + B through them. The regression line can be described just by two numbers, A and B, even if you have thousands of (x, y) points; we have compressed the data (lossily), and also partially explained it.

The laws of physics are a few simple equations that describe the behavior of many different phenomena. They are data compression as well; it is much simpler to write down the equations than to write down all the details of the phenomena they describe.

The more fundamental the laws, the greater the compression, and the more fundamental the explanation is. Newtonian physics works in a limited domain, so it would not be able to compress all the phenomena explained by quantum mechanics or general relativity. Newtonian physics can be seen as a special case of QM or GR; QM and GR give about the same results as Newtonian physics, over the scales and energies that Newtonian physics was designed for. Thus, QM and GR can be understood as explanations of Newtonian physics - an explanatory regress, concurrent with improved compression of natural phenomena.

There is a limit to how much compression is possible, and thus a limit to how many such explanatory regresses you can do. You can't compress every possible file down to 0 bytes; mathematically, it's not possible due to the pigeonhole principle. We would expect a "minimum length" explanation of the universe - a Theory of Everything - which cannot be described in terms of any more fundamental theory, because any other theory consistent with it would be more verbose and thus less fundamental.

This "minimum length" description would thus be an end to the explanatory regress.

causative
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  • This is a good, useful explanation, but it is really axiomatic or a reduction to many unstated presuppositions, isn't it? Compression can either arrive at abstractions empty of actual empirical content or continue infinitely in "meta" renderings, as when a physical explantation by means of an equation with a million digits can be "compressed" into the 27 characters in the words "an equation with a million digits," simply recontextualizing the "explanation" into a new epistemic web, which is a very real evidential problem, as in: "if the glove don't fit you must acquit..." – Nelson Alexander May 29 '21 at 17:15
  • You can't get to the end of a regress by going forward. The explanation is not the compression algorithm here. It is the *decompression* algorithm, that takes your conclusion back to the source data. So this is a great answer, but to an entirely different question. Science just accepts a circular regression, theory to data back to theory back to data... And then it can ignore the question. – hide_in_plain_sight May 29 '21 at 18:16
  • Changing the meaning of 'explain' does not remove the regress. It just declares it beside the point. If you decide that whenever the theory and data get closer together and the expression of the derivation does not mushroom in size, then you throw out your previous basis and accept this new one, that does not remove the idea there are an infinite chain of older provisional bases... It just means deduction is not the tool you intend to use. Testing is. – hide_in_plain_sight May 29 '21 at 18:45
  • @NelsonAlexander if you "compress" an equation with million digits into the words "an equation with a million digits," you haven't actually compressed it because you can't recover the original. Equivalently, you've just done very very lossy compression, which is not a good explanation of the data at all because it's so lossy. – causative May 29 '21 at 21:45
  • @hide_in_plain_sight Well, what is the meaning of "explain" then, if it is not to represent complicated data using a simple theory? What alternative definition do you have in mind? – causative May 29 '21 at 21:48
  • Traditionally, it means tying it back to more basic facts, more readily grasped by the uninitiated. But when a scientific theory gets simpler, it is not more basic than the observations it explains, it is actually further evolved, fewer people actually understand it, but we accept it because it makes the correct predictions. Quantum theory 'explains' more than Newton, in the sense you are using, but nobody can claim more people understand it. So in the traditional sense, that is moving away from an explanation. – hide_in_plain_sight May 30 '21 at 02:07
  • In the modern viewpoint, one ever only needs two explanations. The theory is as it is because it takes the right form and predicts most of the data. And the data is as it is because the theory predicts it. As you draw these two things together, both of these 'explanations' get better and better. But that is obviously straightforwardly circular, in the older sense, nothing gets explained. – hide_in_plain_sight May 30 '21 at 02:24
  • @hide_in_plain_sight If we are ranking theories by how readily grasped by the uninitated they are, this simply provides a different ordering of theories with basically the same conclusion. There must be a (set of) "most readily grasped by the uninitiated" theory/theories, unless you propose that there are an infinity of theories, each more readily grasped by the last - note that the descriptive length of these theories must also increase to infinity, so it doesn't seem likely they could each be more easily grasped than the last. – causative May 30 '21 at 04:38
  • @causative. That presumes a lot -- that all the uninitiated are alike in their ability to grasp things, that this never changes and can be used as a fixed standard to rank a fixed set of theories, that theories themselves all exist to be ranked... None of those seem likely to me. I propose that no one has solved this problem, but that changing the definition of "explaining" from its traditional meaning does not solve it, it discards it. You cannot assume that the modernist 'optimization of function' worldview is always the right one with just some terms transposed... – hide_in_plain_sight May 30 '21 at 17:58
  • The notion of a theory as what we think of it as now, a model that provides predictive power, is not what people with earlier approaches to logic were talking about when they described knowledge. But it is so successful, so we don't need to care. But then we should not just impose ourselves over their viewpoints... This does not address the question that was asked, in the terms of the 'epistemic regress' that arose in those theories. It changed the question. – hide_in_plain_sight May 30 '21 at 18:02
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Regarding your "a endpoint where everything is explained and no further question within the same epistemic line", as in classic propositional logic, it's easy to show B→(A→B) is a tautological theorem via material implication substitution, meaning if anything (B) is true then there's always something else (A) may cause it though not definitely so since this is just a material condition, but you cannot rule out such possibility. So within our actual world it's always possible not to have an endpoint as you wished. Of course many philosophers such as Aristotle posited metaphysically there might be an unmoved mover outside our cosmological world to move it as a first cause.

Regarding your "how some epistemic regress may not be infinite in certain cases", according to Münchhausen trilemma:

In epistemology, the Münchhausen trilemma is a thought experiment used to demonstrate the theoretical impossibility of proving any truth, even in the fields of logic and mathematics, without appealing to accepted assumptions... The Münchhausen trilemma is that there are only three ways of completing a proof:

  1. The circular argument, in which the proof of some proposition is supported only by that proposition
  2. The regressive argument, in which each proof requires a further proof, ad infinitum
  3. The dogmatic argument, which rests on accepted precepts which are merely asserted rather than defended

The trilemma, then, is the decision among the three equally unsatisfying options.

So apparently some epistemic regress may form a finite closed circle, and this kind of epistemology is called coherence theory of justification.

As an epistemological theory, coherentism opposes dogmatic foundationalism and also infinitism through its insistence on definitions. It also attempts to offer a solution to the regress argument that plagues correspondence theory. In an epistemological sense, it is a theory about how belief can be proof-theoretically justified.

Double Knot
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The Münchhausen trilemma is a logical reasoning resting on the assumptions that "there are only three ways of completing a proof". However, reality is what it is and does not depend on any logical argument, and there is a fourth possibility which is that we just happen to know stuff. And, guess what, we do. Or at least, I certainly do. I know for example that I am in pain whenever I am in pain and I know pain as whatever I feel when I am in pain. I don't need to prove to myself that I am really in pain. The Münchhausen trilemma is falsified and there is no regress in this case.

The Münchhausen trilemma does apply, however, to objective facts simply because we certainly have no actual knowledge of any objective facts. All we can do is reason on our beliefs to derive other beliefs logically from the first ones. And since we have to use logical reasoning, we are faced with an infinite regress whenever we try to prove all our assumptions. We cannot do that and so knowledge of objective facts is a dead proposition.


To answer the first comment below which is missing the point, there is another way to say it. The Münchhausen trilemma is a fallacy. Namely, it is the fallacy of equivocation. The reasoning of the Münchhausen trilemma is that there are only three ways to prove. As I said, this is false.

More explicitly, the Münchhausen trilemma equivocates between knowledge and logical proof. It assumes without saying so that knowledge ought to be proven to be knowledge. No, it ought not. I know that I am in pain whenever I am in pain and I know pain as whatever I feel when I am in pain, and I don't need to prove to myself that I am really in pain. I don't need any proof, logical or not, to known that I am in pain whenever I am in pain.

And contrary to what the comment suggests, this is not an axiom, or at least, this is not an axiom in the usual, mathematical sense, i.e., something we arbitrarily take as true and could assume instead that it is false. It is instead an axiom in the original sens of being self-evident, and what is self-evident is of course, by definition, true, not just assumed true. I hope this clarify my point.

The Trilemma's equivocation is between subjective knowledge and objective knowledge. The Münchhausen trilemma equivocates between the two. Logical proof is used to derived conclusions from our beliefs about things we don't know. We don't need to prove things we already know. The Münchhausen trilemma only proves there is no objective knowledge. Sure, we have admitted as much since the Ancient Greeks. So the Trilemma fails to prove, and it could not possible prove, that there is no knowledge at all.

Speakpigeon
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  • The assumptions? No, it is an argument. It does not just presume its conclusion. And yes, just knowing something is one of the options. Some things need to be taken as axiomatic. That you have a natural way of knowing that you are in pain can be taken as axiomatic, it can be derived from other assumptions, or it cannot be used in reasoning. Before you 'falsify' something, know what it means... – hide_in_plain_sight May 28 '21 at 18:15
  • @hide_in_plain_sight "*The assumptions? No, it is an argument. It does not just presume its conclusion.*" ??? I didn't say it wasn't an argument. And all arguments rest on some assumptions. And this is exactly what I said: *The Münchhausen trilemma is a logical reasoning resting on the assumptions that "there are only three ways of completing a proof"*. You seem to be missing the main point of my explanation, though. – Speakpigeon May 29 '21 at 09:54
  • It is not resting on those assumptions. It reaches those conclusions. To say that it rests on the assumption of its conclusion would make it a matter of begging the question, and it isn't. This is an attack, not an argument. – hide_in_plain_sight May 29 '21 at 17:36
  • I clearly don't agree with your conclusion that objective knowledge simply does not exist. Epistemic regress does not equal nihilism. It equals some kind of counter-foundationalism. – hide_in_plain_sight May 29 '21 at 17:43
  • What you are ignoring is that the argument is about deriving kowledge, within the same structure where this 'trilemma' comes from initially, there are two other options where we just *receive* and do not *derive* knowledge: direct experience and transmitted information. To *derive* further understanding from those, you need to accept an axiom about how to judge the reliability of *received* knowledge. – hide_in_plain_sight May 29 '21 at 18:00
  • And 'axiom' here is not an axiom in the mathematical sense, given that we did not get that idea for several hundred more years after Pyrrho. It is just something that you are going to have to assert without proof, but that you do consider worthy of asserting. – hide_in_plain_sight May 29 '21 at 18:03
  • @hide_in_plain_sight "*It is not resting on those assumptions. It reaches those conclusions.*" Ok, so what are the assumptions and what is the argument to reach the conclusion. – Speakpigeon May 30 '21 at 10:07
  • @hide_in_plain_sight "*'axiom' here is not an axiom in the mathematical sense, given that we did not get that idea for several hundred more years after Pyrrho*" There is no logical difference between axioms, postulates, hypotheses, premises and assumptions. – Speakpigeon May 30 '21 at 10:25
  • There is no way I am laying out the basics of Pyrrho in a comment. Go look up the topic. – hide_in_plain_sight Jun 01 '21 at 15:37
  • What makes you imagine I am making such a distinction? I am not. If I were, I would have said so. That is in reply to "And contrary to what the comment suggests, this is not an axiom, or at least, this is not an axiom in the usual, mathematical sense". I am pointing out that in this context that is not the usual sense. "I don't need to prove to myself that I am really in pain" is an axiom, not in the mathematical sense, but in that you are not going to even try to prove it. It seems obvious to you. It is not obvious to everyone -- Descartes, for instance... – hide_in_plain_sight Jun 01 '21 at 15:55
  • @hide_in_plain_sight "*There is no way I am laying out the basics of Pyrrho in a comment*". This is not what I asked you. Never mind. Have a nice. – Speakpigeon Jun 01 '21 at 16:54
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I don't see any way out of an infinite epistemic regress, unless you accept Kant's illustration of unresolvable antinomies once you allow reasoning to proceed without empirical content.The limit is pragmatic not logical.

The regress will end empirically in experience or "common sense." I believe it was Gregory Bateson who used the maxim in information theory that meaning is "a difference the makes a difference." And likewise an explanation regresses to a lingering difference "that makes no difference."

This is like the limit in calculus that can proceed to any degree or precision until... well, it doesn't matter. Or like Hume's speck that can get smaller and smaller until one cannot say whether it is "really" there or not.

All this is simply a pragmatist's approach to the problem, in which one can argue or "explain" down to the "belief one is willing to act on." So, this epistemic regress looks to me like a form of Kantian antinomy to which, crudely put, the limit is "show me."

Nelson Alexander
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