Generally I only buy electrical fixtures (lights, fans, etc.) from a reputable seller out of concern for fire risks, but if AFCI breakers and GFCI receptacles are installed, would that eliminate any potential for fires / dangerous issues if there was either a faulty fixture or wiring in the house?
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5Eliminate no, but should reduce the chances by a very large amount. Should be close to zero chance if everything is to code and the breakers/receptacles are working as they should. – crip659 Jun 10 '21 at 13:37
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1I confidently buy a 10-pack of outlets for $5 and use them without worry. Is that cheap? Yes. Is the company reputable? Also yes. Are the faulty? Only time can tell. You should revise your question to remove money from the equation. Yes AFCI and GFCI exist to protect people from various electrical failures regardless of perceived quality of of your fixtures/devices. However, don't cheap out on the AFCI/GFCI protection itself. – MonkeyZeus Jun 10 '21 at 14:02
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@MonkeyZeus So you are willing to spend $40-$50 on AFCI/GFCI breakers to protect fifty cent outlets? ...probably back stabs, which are awful. Step it up and get some spec grade outlets that will last for more than a few years. I wish SE would allow DV'ing comments. – George Anderson Jun 10 '21 at 14:34
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1@GeorgeAnderson I never thought I could be insulted over the Internet but accusing me of using backstabs is a particularly heinous transgression... – MonkeyZeus Jun 10 '21 at 14:39
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2@MonkeyZeus Sorry about that, guess I got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. But using 50 cent outlets is also egregious . – George Anderson Jun 10 '21 at 14:41
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@GeorgeAnderson Hah, no sweat. My comment was supposed to be cheeky. What is a "spec grade" outlet anyways? If the Home Depot 10-pack is UL Listed then what's the issue? Is spec grade immune to faults? I'm not saying that a $50 breaker is an excuse to use bad products. At the end of the day, the breaker is a good idea regardless of how much you spent on downstream equipment. – MonkeyZeus Jun 10 '21 at 14:47
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I do agree with George on the cheeep contractors grade receptacles. I do spend more when I spec the job actually +5x on receptacles and that is part of why people seek me out years later. Those receptacles are UL listed but so are backstabs and I have repaired quite a few burned up receptacles in my career. A recipe for a fire, .50 cent receptacle with a 18 gauge extension cord to a milk house heater , 3 full blown fires I have repaired. – Ed Beal Jun 10 '21 at 14:49
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@EdBeal Why are they sub-par exactly? Do they wear out faster or are they mechanically unsafe? Do you simply despise the existence of backstabs? Like I said, I **DO NOT** ever use backstabs. – MonkeyZeus Jun 10 '21 at 14:52
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2@monkeyzeus, they do not have the same quality hardware so yes they do wear out faster, new they don’t have the same withdrawal force after just a few cycles (some jobs I have to measure the withdrawal force). That with the ones that only have backstabs should be outlawed in my opinion. Although backstabs may have put my son through college so I should like them. Despise backstabs yes because of the close calls to full blown fires. Not only arcing at a stab but look at the plug face for soot from arcing, most likely a cheep one even if it has screws in my experience. – Ed Beal Jun 10 '21 at 15:01
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1I've remodeled a couple of rentals I had and the outlets were the cheepies. After about 10 years, they were so weak that a plug would hardly stay in, def. an arc fault/fire hazard. I replaced them all with spec grade. Yeah, they are much harder to push in a plug, but a much more secure/solid connection. – George Anderson Jun 10 '21 at 15:43
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1Because UL isn't in the business of grading quality, they grade **safety**. It's obvious that an unsafe unit is not quality, but other than that, UL is silent on usefulness, durability or reliability. Caveat Emptor. – Harper - Reinstate Monica Jun 10 '21 at 17:33
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@george Anderson I am surprised you got 10 out of homeowners grade that is a long time, spec / commercial grade are expected to last 20 years in commercial use but my rep said 50 to 100 years is more likely and hospital grade have totally different standards from insertion force to withdrawal force and tougher plastic if jerked out hospital grade is the best , commercial the middle and homeowners cheapest the plastics are similar to the grade also so a broken plastic face is common on homeowners grade compared to rarely seeing a broken hospital grade (not the cover plate the receptacle face). – Ed Beal Jun 10 '21 at 22:03
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@EdBeal Not sure of the exact timeline. I didn't own the rental all that long before I remodeled it. I assumed since it was about 10 years old when I bought it that the outlets were of the same vintage. Shoot: 50 year old outlets were better than the cheap stuff nowadays. – George Anderson Jun 10 '21 at 23:33
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@MonkeyZeus 50 cent outlets are fine for outlets in code-required areas that nobody ever uses. If it's an outlet that you'll plug something into maybe once every few years, fine a 50 cent outlet will do the job. But if it's in regular use and things are going in and out of it with any frequency then those cheap outlets fall apart pretty quickly and you end up with plugs that will fall out of the receptacle with little more than gravity or a wiggle. Plug a vacuum or hairdryer in something that sloppy and the contact resistance is higher, the outlet gets hotter, etc. – J... Jun 11 '21 at 18:45
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Do AFCI and GFCI protect against cheap equipment?
Not really. A GFCI will limit a shock and an AFCI will limit arcing. There are many other things that can happen with non listed equipment. I specifically look for a UL listing or TUV true verification that the devices are safe to use. Some JUNK may not arc or have ground faults but overheat and start a fire.
So NO even the combination AFCI + GFCI devices can not protect for these cases where no arcing or ground faults happen. Poorly chosen components that over heat and start fires can still happen.
What’s worse is some devices cause nuisance tripping, no faults, new replacement more tripping the owner removes the AFCI and the device ends up causing a small fire (usually contained in the junction box).
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1+1 Indeed, not really. To the OP: UL + AFCI/GFCI are added layers of protection for different failure modes (wiring, fitting, install, wear & tear, wet conditions), not substitutes. – P2000 Jun 10 '21 at 14:33
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Ed: I wish I could give you a 100 points for that answer! And the advice monkeyzuse it not good. It's just not that much more expensive to invest in quality materials. ++++++++++ – George Anderson Jun 10 '21 at 14:37
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If the cheap equipment is so cheap, that you experience a live-neutral shock, you will die, and neither the GFCI/AFCI will trip, because killing you became the load. You'll be long dead before the lowest rated breakers will trip from shocking you.
AFCI/GFCI do not cover all possible source of danger. It covers some of it and can make things safer, but electricity will still kill you. Don't do stupid things and think AFCI/GFCI can compensate for garbage electronics.
Nelson
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At the very least, you need to comply with NEC 110.2 (it's on the first page) which says you must use approved equipment. In practice that means listed by an NRTL such as UL, CSA, ETL, BSI, TUV and the like, this being independent lab testing to positively confirm the appliance complies with the relevant UL White Book standards so it won't kill you. And then, continued surveillance of factory output to assure the factory doesn't bait-and-switch.
*It sounds like what you're saying is, "Is it OK to use the cheap Cheese junk I see on AliExpress, Amazon, eBay, Banggood, DealExtreme and wish.com" the vast majority of which are not listed.
Right off the top of my head, here's a fatal blunder: As you know, any random plastic will burn like a freak and produce toxic smoke; very commonly in house fires, the toxic smoke overcomes you - it doesn't need to kill you clinically dead, just incapacitate you and the smoke/fire does the rest. They must be made out of the right plastics (expensive) to NOT do that. The right plastics cost money.
That's an immediate example of something AFCI and GFCI won't protect against.
That cheapo stuff online is all about cutting every possible corner on costs, so they dispense with both proper materials and independent lab testing. Since most consumers expect an NRTL mark to be there, they just stick a CE, CCC, FCC or RoHS mark on there, none of which are NRTLs but you don't know that. They either don't relate to device safety, or are voluntary self-certifications that are unenforced outside certain jurisdictions, so no consequence for faking them.
Harper - Reinstate Monica
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