Playing 99 in early position

Question

In an answer I got a comment who would not play 99 in early position
My reaction is I would not

Assume 8 handed and early position is UTG or UTG+1

Do you play 99 and in early position and if so how?

And why?

Some people have already answered but I was thinking MTT no limit and 30+ bb.

You forgot the game type, you could play `99` differently in cash full ring, 6-max cash, MTT tournament early or SNG lates stages/or bubble and/or loose players acting after you. On cash, it's easier to play it anyway rather tourneys and quite straightforward. — , Jan 25 '16 at 18:38
@vlzvl I was thinking no limit MTT with over 20bb. That does make a difference. — paparazzo, Jan 25 '16 at 18:42
ahh i see. It does make a difference, although `over 20bb` is not enough. Personally, i would fold it early position with exactly 20bb if there were aggro players _since you don't have the odds to call a lone raiser_ and don't have implied odds as well. This hand plays good on multi-way and early position does not guarantee that. If i knew a guy would raise me x5 preflop, that's a fold. With 30+, you play it normally from everywhere, assuming there's no crazy stuff around and you don't spend more than say `6,7%` of your stack for entering. — , Jan 25 '16 at 18:56

score 4 · Accepted Answer · answered Jan 22 '16 at 20:42

I would play 99 in early position.

I would do a standard raise from this position.

If the flop contains a 9 you are golden. Anything below 9 you still have good odds. Anything above a 9 could be in your range (at least my range) for early position play.

mah · Answer 2 · 2016-01-25T13:15:31.137

I would definitely play 99 from any position (or even 88 from UTG). The hand itself is certainly not a strong one if it remains unimproved and pre-flop it might be near the bottom of my range (depending on table dynamics) but I don't think it's ever unplayable.

Like all hands I will play, if I'm first to open (I'm either UTG or it's been folded to me), I'm opening for whatever the standard table raise is. If I get re-raised then calling vs. folding will be based on effective stack size between me and the raiser: I won't play without taking the lead (being the last raiser) unless the bet size is less than 8% of the effective stack: if there isn't enough money available to get paid off, it's not worth playing. I'm playing 99 with the intention of hitting a set and getting all-in. If I don't hit the set (which is the case 88% of the time), how I play depends not on my cards but the situation (and is no different than how I play AK that didn't hit).

Based on another posted answer there seems to be a question of ability to get paid off here so I would like to address my thoughts on those points.

99 against 7 random hands is 19% or about 4:1. This hand, in my mind, is being played for set value. If we hit our set (on the flop), we're now approximately 68% to win the hand against 7 random hands. If we reduce the range of those 7 other players to reasonable calling ranges our equity does not drop significantly. That said, I don't know why 7 was chosen; if I'm in a game where I can expect 7 players to see most flops, I'm not going to stick around. It's worth noting though that if we end folding most players, when heads-up we're a slight favor to win the hand without improving it.

There is a saying You win small pots with marginal hands and lose big pots And in this case it is so true. Since I'm playing for set value, I'm not concerned about a marginal hand at showdown. Of course, certain board dynamics can change that significantly, such as an open ended straight draw or 4 to a flush. Fortunately these scenarios do not appear often enough to be concerned with them pre-flop.

Position, position, position Even if you hit a set you lose 1 bet by being out of position We can certainly miss out on one bet when we place it and our opponent(s) fold, but to think we lose a bet due to position implies our opponents are going to take the lead when we're in position and we really cannot count on that. Beyond that though, position is always an important factor and we can never do as well out of it than in it. This is not, in my opinion, justification to fold 99 pre.

Most of the hands that are a coin flip or will dominate you will be in the pot. Any bigger pair will be in the pot (you are dominated and out of position) Any hand with two cards over 10 or over will (likely) be in the pot Of course we can be in the hand with people holding higher pairs, but we don't expect to win every hand we think we're favored to win. Being 68% to win when we hit our set is pretty powerful, and to alter our play for the 32% of time we are going to lose anyway is too tight; it leaves money on the table.

You will get some K little suited and A little suited (only 2:1 against them and they the are not going to stay around unless they hit A, K, or a flush draw) If we hit our set, we're looking to get stacks in the pot. If they hit their flush we're going to lose our stack; this is the risk we're willing to take (and by only committing 8% of the effective stack pre, we leave room to make up for the times it happens).

Most of the hands you dominate will not be in the pot I get this is maybe circular but I would only play 99-55 and low suited connectors in mid to late position. That's ok if they decide to fold, but it's certainly not a guarantee. If we're UTG and UTG+1 has such a hand, they'll probably fold. Any player with a pair that folds to a single raise and two callers is ideal to have at the table because they'll fold any time they don't have the nuts. These players are great sources of money but unfortunately they're extremely rare.

If the board flops dry you are not likely to get any action. We want action of course, but if everyone folds that's ok too (even if less ideal). Reinforced again: we're playing for stacks. We can't get stacks into the pot every time (and even when we do, we don't win every time), so we're not stopping once we've hit 8:1 on our initial raise (and if we're fortunate enough to have many players in, we're close to our 8:1 before the flop even gets seen). That said though, even on a dry board we're going to get callers because by coming in with 99 for a raise (and by raising every time we open the action... never limping in) because they're never going to put us on a set with this hand. Most people that called our pre flop bet have at least one (and often two) overcards and they think we're just c-betting without anything to back it up -- something we'll do in certain situations but not as often as they think.

If the board flops wet yes you are going to get action but you are also likely beat. If we have more than two opponents and we didn't hit either our set or at least a hand with 8 or more outs, we're not going to c-bet here. If we did hit one of these favorable situations, we're going to bet and getting action doesn't by any stretch mean we're beat with certainty; we're only 32% to lose by showdown (and that often requires turn and possibly river cards to get to that point). We'll get called with several draws because even though we priced it such that they don't have odds to get there, our opponents will call anyway (and if they don't, that's good too because it gives us an instant win).

If you hit your 9 on the flop Again not going to get paid off on a dry board And you are going to lose big to bigger set, straight, or flush The only way you get paid off is a lower set and two pair and even then you are not going to likely to get paid off big Yes you get paid off by bigger pair but it not likely be a big enough payoff to justify the 8:1 to get set on the flop. I believe these have already been covered but to reiterate: It's absolutely true that we are not going to win just because we hit our set, but we're going to win by a healthy margin when we do. When we're up against a straight or flush it's almost never on the flop but rather the turn or river that got them there, and we've had time to build a pot. The very interesting thing about the river when we've got a set is that we have more outs to make a full house (or quads) than our opponents have to make a flush or straight. If our opponents are drawing for a flush they often have fewer than the 9 outs they think they have. When the stars are lined up just right, we hold one of their outs and two others will pair the board for our full house.

The bottom line is that 99 is not a great hand from any position and, like all hands, especially from early position. However, if played properly it is a profitable hand. If the hand is folded when in early position this profit is lost but it's by far the greatest mistake one could make with the hand. Every hand in poker needs a plan to be played properly; this one from UTG probably more than others. Improving ability to play 99 early should not be priority when weighed against many other concepts, but it should not be tossed out never to become part of one's arsenal either.

paparazzo · Answer 3 · 2016-01-25T15:07:15.893

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My answer is no

99 against 7 random hands is 19% or about 4:1
There is a saying
You win small pots with marginal hands and lose big pots
And in this case it is so true
Position, position, position
Even if you hit a set you lose 1 bet by being out of position
As first to act you don't know how many are going to be in the pot
If you get 3 bet you very likely way behind
Most of the hands that are a coin flip or will dominate you will be in the pot
Any bigger pair will be in the pot (you are dominated and out of position)
Any hand with two cards over 10 or over will (likely) be in the pot
You will get some K little suited and A little suited (only 2:1 against them and they the are not going to stay around unless they hit A, K, or a flush draw)
Most of the hands you dominate will not be in the pot
You might get some lower suited connectors
If the board flops dry you are not likely to get any action
If the board flops wet yes you are going to get action but you are also likely beat
If you hit your 9 on the flop
Again not going to get likely to get paid off on a dry board
And you are going to lose big to bigger set, straight, or flush
The only way you get paid off a decent amount is a lower set or two pair and even then you are not going to likely to get paid off big
Yes you get paid off by bigger pair but it not likely be a big enough payoff to justify the 8:1 to get set on the flop

This quide says don't play 99 in early position (and I clearly agree)
This quide says play any pair in early position

To me TT is is a much better hand as it beats 99 and it is a blocker to nut straight (broadway). You are more likely to get action if you hit a 10 as a 10 is part of lot more hands that see a flop (even if the 10 just fills in the straight). You can lead out 1/2 pot bet on the flop and get action from any hand JT or better.

edited Jan 25 '16 at 15:07

answered Jan 22 '16 at 21:34

paparazzo

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99 is not a marginal hand, JQ is. 99 is a made hand. Small, and depending on board texture it might need to be folded, but your ahead of most of your competition. Don't limp in, bet enough to thin the field to one or two opponents (which should be SOP for any hand worth playing). If you feel you don't play 99 we'll post flop then a) fold it pre as you're inclined to do now, and b) get help figuring out how to play it because you have a slow leak by not. Thinking you cannot get paid off if you hit your set is just not routinely correct unless you play too tight and thus are easily readable. – mah Jan 23 '16 at 13:52
I dunno, I think it's a toss-up which is a better staring hand... ;-) – Jan 24 '16 at 00:11
@Frisbee you certainly did say you feared 7 in the hand... Read your own statements; top of your answer and also two of your comments. Fallacies, yes... You post many and I would down vote your post but I don't believe it's right to do so after having a heated discussion like this. Re: Broadway, you fear it at the bottom of your answer. No, you didn't imply it had to be flopped, but if you fail to see why that's the biggest reason to fear it I truly wish you had a more open mind to see how badly you understand the game. It feels like too much pride is blocking you from understanding. – mah Jan 25 '16 at 12:13
@Frisbee Took your advice and posted an answer. Good day to you. – mah Jan 25 '16 at 12:58
@Frisbee Inconsistencies? I misspoke re: heads up and I owned up to it; apparently that's not good enough for you. You seem to think my statement re: blinds is inconsistent but that's only because you lack vision to understand what I said (and explained in chat, though you seem to have not been there). I cleaned up because the content here is no longer necessary, but if "7 random hands is fact not fear" you must play with complete dolts because against even semi-competent players, that doesn't happen if you've led with a raise (and if you open without a raise, you're inviting it to happen). – mah Jan 25 '16 at 14:04
@Frisbee as to this "convenient delete" you accuse me of, you can find the full transcript of what I deleted in chat: http://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/34807/discussion-between-mah-and-frisbee. You are quite free with the negative accusations and incapable of actually addressing the facts of the problem. You might wish to research why people deflect as you do, rather than addressing the details of the topic of discussion. You won't like what you learn but that's the first step towards recovery. – mah Jan 25 '16 at 14:09
@Frisbee again with the deflection. English is my first language, but selective reading seems to be yours. My statement was, and I copy-paste, "if you cannot be profitable with 99 from UTG or even the blinds, it's your own fault". My mention of blinds was an additional data point, not a replacement one but you seem so hung up on the fact that the word "blind" was there that you are incapable of comprehending anything else. Your attempt at deflection here has failed miserably and sadly I believe you to be too self-consumed to even realize that. – mah Jan 25 '16 at 14:29
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@Frisbee if it's inconsistent with your statements, why did you not simply ignore it and respond to the rest of the statement? Or even point it out _and_ address the rest of the point? Your statements, UTG, were still there. Convenient of you to ignore that in your attack on my English skills. Considering a future in politics perhaps -- ignore anything that actually refutes what you say and instead focus solely on the tiniest of tidbits that are not germane to anything of substance? That's certainly how your game of deflection and absence of actual debate of the relevant points makes you look. – mah Jan 25 '16 at 14:50
@Frisbee we've both been discussing 99 out of position only (though perhaps you're unclear on that because you don't like the phrase "from the blinds"?) so what is it I keep "coming back to"? We cannot have an objective discussion because you prefer to call me rude, attack my English skills, and beat a dead horse well after I admitted to misspeaking, rather than address points I've made about why 99 is profitable. You don't stay on topic and most of what you address has little to nothing to do with poker strategy and you even attacked me for trying to clean up this stream of comments. – mah Jan 25 '16 at 15:08
@Frisbee I see; with you, if one makes an error, even after admitting it they can not gain credibility with you. "Only when I challenged you did acknowledge..." um.. perhaps it's because I did not realize my error until you pointed it out to me. Are you truly incapable of understanding that without it being spelled out to you? Why haven't you admitted your own mistakes (even after you've been challenged on them)? Easier to deflect I suppose - just like you're doing with "you made a mistake so I am unwilling to consider anything else you have to say". Am I the only human in this conversation? – mah Jan 25 '16 at 15:40
@Frisbee I've identified other flaws in your statements, most of which are in my answer, but the most glaring one is when you think you can't get your 8:1 payoff if you have 7 people in the hand. Quite glaring because you already have 7:1 of your payoff in the pot! If you can't get a single caller for even a c-bet under normal circumstances, that's tragic (but I don't believe it). The exposure you discuss is both valid and insignificant. Sure, you'll lose with a set in those situations, but how often? 32%. So 8:1 payoff isn't enough, you need 12:1. I normally get paid more that, why can't you? – mah Jan 25 '16 at 16:09
@Frisbee what makes you think anything about the bets in the pot already is not clear? Yes, 7 _is_ a big if (and it's abnormal at that) but that doesn't mean you cannot play against 4. You can even play HU though it's not ideal here because as you know, it's harder to get your set payout. That is balanced though by having momentum to be able to win with a c-bet/ Remember you saying you won't get callers on a dry board? Now that situation is favorable. Since you can't always control the situation, adapting to it is required. I don't think your post play is inept, but I suspect your pre is too.. – mah Jan 25 '16 at 16:36
...tight which leads to you getting less action than you should. Remember my comment earlier about folding my KK to a (hyperbolically) tight player? He's not going to get action when he only plays super premium hands. I'm sure you aren't that tight, and I wouldn't even state that folding 99 UTG is exceedingly tight, only that it's a small leak. You posted two external links... partypoker which is basic beginner strategy and cardschat which is for more advanced players. Everyone starts as a beginner but do you really want to stay there forever? Or advocate that others should? – mah Jan 25 '16 at 16:40
@Frisbee you continue to restate the obvious even after I've told you its clear. Why don't you try a more productive approach such as indicate _why you think that matters_? Yes, (I think) we both agree that it's _better_ if more people call you and we also both agree that since we're UTG, we cannot control (or predict) if that will happen. Rather than complain that communication doesn't work, and fulfill your end of it: read what I said (three comments up) about the situation. If you disagree, state why. If you don't understand, say so. But so far you only leave zero indication of reading it. – mah Jan 25 '16 at 16:47
@Frisbee _Inept? You are the one isolating with 99 until I plugged that leak._ Now you're just being obtuse. You didn't plug anything, you rightly called me out on a statement I did not intend to make and I did not agree with in the first place. No wonder you can't seem to get anything from communication, you never question your own ability to be wrong so you assume it isn't possible. – mah Jan 25 '16 at 16:49
@Frisbee You've come full circle. No kidding you don't enter the pot, you've said so from the very beginning; it's ridiculous for you to think that isn't clear. I gravely apologize for trying to alter your line of thinking. I wrongly believed that you wanted to grow as a poker player, but it's pretty clear that you are quite happy where you are, and with all sincerity, there's nothing wrong with that. It's only a small leak, and certainly one that cannot get you stacked. It merely gives up potential profits. – mah Jan 25 '16 at 16:55
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@mah alright you two, take it to the poker tables please... – Jan 25 '16 at 17:02
Let me be clear on this. If you want to discuss this ANY further... do it in the chat system. That is its function. It's there so other useful comments wont be drowned out by a full converstaion. If your *extended* discussion is useful, thats where it belongs. Thanks. – Toby Booth Jan 25 '16 at 20:57
@Frisbee So far as I know, it's already migrated there. Maybe not all of it, but a lot of it. Just be sure to continue it there if you do, otherwise it'll keep getting flagged up for mod attention, thanks. – Toby Booth Jan 25 '16 at 21:06
@TobyBooth I don't fully follow but I am done. If you want to delete that is my preference. – paparazzo Jan 25 '16 at 21:12

score 0 · Answer 4 · answered Feb 04 '16 at 17:12

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In cash playing 99 is completely and utterly standard in full ring utg and utg+1 and anyone who tells you different is a complete and utter nit. In an MTT it could be a fold if certain ICM effects are present.

answered Feb 04 '16 at 17:12

Anon

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Playing 99 in early position

4 Answers4