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I sometimes lose count of the pot size. At a live game can you ask other players for the size of the pot or is that considered coaching?

So far what I have found here:

Asking for help

You are not allowed to ask anyone at the table for help in playing a hand, including the dealer. You may ask what you can bet at any given point or general game questions, but you cannot ask what you should do in a particular hand. The house rules always state “one player to a hand.”

And this link provided by RoToRa:

50: Pot Size & Pot-Limit Bets
A: Players are entitled to a pot count in pot-limit only. Dealers will not count the pot in limit and no-limit.

Found this by chance

The Dealer WILL NOT tell a player the total amount of the pot at any time. The dealer may spread the pot for viewing by the player with action pending, upon request.

paparazzo
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4 Answers4

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The standard casino rule is that the dealer is not supposed to count the pot for you. He may, however, "spread" the pot on request so that its contents are more visible and easier for a player to count (especially if there are buried high-value chips).

An exception to this rule is if you pre-commit to a bet. For example "I bet the pot" or "I bet half the pot". Then the dealer is required to count, but that's not helping you because your action is already committed.

Lee Daniel Crocker
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  • I assumed dealer was illegal. I actually asked about asking another player. – paparazzo Jan 20 '16 at 20:48
  • Players are not obliged to communicate with you in any way. You can ask, but it would be considered rude. – Lee Daniel Crocker Jan 20 '16 at 20:49
  • Not arguing with just looking at the rule literally. "You are not allowed to ask anyone at the table for help in playing a hand, including the dealer." By strict interpretation I would think I could not even ask as that is help playing the hand. – paparazzo Jan 20 '16 at 20:52
  • _An exception to this rule is if you pre-commit to a bet. For example "I bet the pot" or "I bet half the pot"_ -- unless you're in a game where limits are tied to the pot, I don't think "i bet the pot" etc. is a legal verbalization. In games where pot is limit, you can ask the dealer. – mah Jan 22 '16 at 16:07
  • In a no-limit game, "I bet the pot" is absolutely legal and binding. – Lee Daniel Crocker Jan 22 '16 at 16:42
  • @LeeDanielCrocker this would require the dealer to count the pot, which is not something that ever happens in a no-limit game. Since you absolutely feel different, perhaps you would like to provide a reference beyond anecdote? Good reason for it to not be permitted: why would anyone keep their own tally instead of just "I bet X percentage of the pot" everytime (slowing the game down immensely)? I would find it highly surprising if you could find even a single non-home-game that allows this. – mah Jan 22 '16 at 19:36
  • I was a poker dealer and floorman for about ten years. No-limit players generally don't do it, but I have done it, and if any player in my club said "I bet the pot", I would absolutely hold him to it, and I can't imagine any floorman who wouldn't. – Lee Daniel Crocker Jan 22 '16 at 19:54
  • That's anecdote of a single venue, but I contend you'll not find another (professionally run) venue that allows it and you'll certainly not find a commonly accepted rule that permits it. Your statement was that the practice is "absolutely legal and binding" and I am asking you for credible proof of this clear statement, not "this is how I did it in some place you never heard of". – mah Jan 23 '16 at 13:34
  • I have personally done this in several places in California and Nevada. I have discussed it with other floormen. Unless *you* can provide some evidence of casinos actually holding a verbal declaration of "I bet the pot" to be non-binding, then it's debatable. – Lee Daniel Crocker Jan 23 '16 at 16:26
  • @LeeDanielCrocker actually, you're asking me to prove something that doesn't exist. You have no place claiming where others are talking from when your only proof that this thing does exist is your personal allegory. I _think_ what you've said is wrong. Since you clearly know differently, why don't you step up to the plate and back it up with something credible. Claiming you've done it in several places and even discussed it with floormen is highly incredible but if there's truth, surely you can back it up with something more substantial such as an actual rule posted somewhere neutral. – mah Jan 25 '16 at 13:19
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    My answer stands. You are being childish, and I have no interest in meeting your unreasonable demands. I am happy to let the community here just my credibility against yours, and will not engage you further. – Lee Daniel Crocker Jan 25 '16 at 14:56
  • @LeeDanielCrocker how is asking for proof of something I don't believe is valid being childish? How do you justify your own action of making a claim that you cannot back other than through stories nobody can verify as being anything more than saying "it is too! IT IS TOO!"? Incidentally, you wanted me to prove my position and I thought I cannot because it's a non-existence, but I can partially prove it at least, for tournament game, if the TDA rules referred to in the OP are valid. Are they wrong? Asking for credible evidence to your claim is not unreasonable, it's the foundation of truth. – mah Jan 25 '16 at 15:01
  • TDA rules are different. Yes, rule 50 disallows the declaration in no-limit play. But we're talking about live games here, so let me be clear: I have, more than once, most recently at Thunder Valley casino, declared "pot" in a no limit game and was routinely understood and acted upon. I have personally accepted such as a floorman for the Phoenix Casino. What "proof" do you want, a video? – Lee Daniel Crocker Jan 25 '16 at 15:27
  • @LeeDanielCrocker A video is not necessary (and that would indeed be unreasonable, but still just allegory). The best reasonable proof would be some statement of the rules of poker on a website that is generally accepted. Perhaps easier would be posting on the 2+2 forums to have other dealers and floors as well as players chime in; surely if what you say is valid you can garnish healthy support at that forum which is highly populated by industry veterans. I don't expect you to do that but it could support you. I'd happily admit I'm wrong and apologize if you did and it worked out that way. – mah Jan 25 '16 at 16:19
  • Feel free to solicit such opinions. If that's your idea of an appropriate authority, go for it. – Lee Daniel Crocker Jan 25 '16 at 16:55
  • @LeeDanielCrocker It's not my idea of an appropriate authority, but I've already told you what is and you haven't shown a willingness to find a rule permitting this action that you state is absolutely permitted. Is "absolute" not something one would find in the rules? All I've been asking of you is _credible_ reference, and all you've provided is chest thumping. – mah Jan 25 '16 at 17:01
  • Dammit, I'm done with you. I wrote my answer, and I clearly stated my authority for it as personal experience of 30 years playing and 10 years working in the industry. If you disagree, find, write another answer and let people vote on it. If you think another authority would be better, then show it. But it is clearly YOUR job to put up or shut up. I'm done. – Lee Daniel Crocker Jan 25 '16 at 17:13
  • @LeeDanielCrocker and I told you that your "personal experience" is not a credible reference; that's pretty easy to understand isn't it? If I told you that is from my personal experience and should be well documented in commonly accepted rules and something which you did not believe, would you believe me if I just thumped my chest a little more? It's not my job to "put up or shut up" for your total lack of credible evidence. In fact quite the contrary, prove your position; I've read the rules and there's no mention of your assertion so there's my proof. – mah Jan 25 '16 at 17:18
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As a dealer, I'm not allowed to answer that question unless the game being played is pot limit. In no limit, I can spread the pot in a tournament, or cut down the stacks to show the amount in a cash game (in my casino we always keep cash chips stacked, rather than spreading them out). If a player says "pot," it's not binding in any way. If they say "I bet pot," they have to bet, since they said "I bet," but they're not bound to an amount. In both cases my response would be something along the lines of "It's not pot limit; give me a number." It isn't uncommon for player to ask another player how much is in the pot, and some will give an approximate answer. If they get it way wrong, I still can't give an actual number, but I'll do something to indicate the mistake, like maybe there's a black chip they didn't see, and I'll move it to make it more obvious.

Jivan Scarano
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I would say asking a player what is in the pot is a violation of the one player a hand rule common in every casino.

I consider knowing what is in the pot is a game skill, I would not tell you what was in the pot if you asked.

While it is allowed I do not think the practice of spreading the pot out so a player can count it, should be allowed. I simply do not think that a dealer should be doing anything that helps a player whom does not have a particular game skill.

The easiest way to figure out a pot size is not to count chips, but just recount the action. It is easier, and not so obvious to the other players.

Jon
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  • I doubt anyone with the skill to know what to do with that information is going to lack the skill to either know what is in the pot already, or be able to come up with a close enough approximation (even without having the pot spread) to apply it towards a properly sized bet. It might technically be a OPTAH violation, but at that point I don't think it really matters. – mah Jan 22 '16 at 16:05
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You can always ask the dealer, they should know what's in the pot pretty much at all times, especially if it's a cash game. If they don't know what's in the pot ask them to spread the pot and count it up yourself in your head. Both asking for a count and asking for the pot to be spread are perfectly ok.

There is no rules against asking a player per se, but it doesn't mean they have to give you an answer.

Chris Farmer
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Grinch91
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    Wow, I have been told no by a dealer. – paparazzo Jan 20 '16 at 10:01
  • Could be house rules, could be just they're being an ass. I've always given a player a count when asked. If they say no just ask for the pot to be spread. – Grinch91 Jan 20 '16 at 10:20
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    TDA rules say, that in the dealer only may give a pot count in pot limit games (Rule 50). – RoToRa Jan 20 '16 at 12:13
  • @RoToRa Thanks http://www.pokertda.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Poker-TDA-Rules-2015-Version-1.0-full-longform-PDF-1.pdf – paparazzo Jan 20 '16 at 16:35
  • In my experience, dealers are happy to "spread the pot" so you can do your own count, but (except in, for example, PLO) they're not going to give you a count. If you're not able to keep a running count yourself, you can probably get a close enough approximation based on remembering the action that has occurred and the number of players in the hand. – mah Jan 20 '16 at 19:53
  • @Frisbee dealer cannot tell you how much is in the pot. You have to count yourself. But you can ask to spread a pot. – Kanan Farzali Jan 20 '16 at 21:08