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In the current online issue of Skeptic magazine, Gary Whittenberger publishes “Meta Ethics: Toward a Universal Ethics — How Science & Reason Can Give Us Objective Moral Truths Without God”. In the course of his argument, he runs up against the “is” of science making the leap toward the “ought” of morality.

Whittenberger vaults the chasm! Does he make it? Here is the central quote (edited for formatting):

I view an “ought” statement as both a contingent prediction and an encouragement. If I say “You ought to shop at the grocery store today” then I am predicting that if you shop at the grocery store today, then you will have a good outcome for yourself and perhaps for others, and so I am now encouraging you to go there. This reduces the “mystery of the ought.”

If we think carefully about the first component, i.e., the contingent prediction, we may understand that it is really based on two “is” statements. It “is” a fact that in the past when you have shopped at the grocery store, you have almost always had a good outcome, and it “is” a fact that when under similar circumstances you have not shopped at the grocery store, you have almost always had a bad outcome.

The second component is also an “is” statement, i.e., it “is” a fact that I am right now encouraging you to shop at the grocery store today. Thus, the original “ought” statement is derived from three “is” statements, two about the record of past events and one about encouragement. We can derive “ought” statements from “is” statements, but we must do it carefully by the use of reason.

If Whittenberger is correct, he has solved David Hume’s “is-ought” problem. This problem has puzzled a lot of good minds in the intervening 275 years or so.

Well, fellow Stack Exchangers, did Whittenberger do it? (I am skeptical) And is the problem of induction the next to fall?

benrg
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Mark Andrews
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    It depends on whether he has justified his usage of the term "good outcome." But the is-ought problem is solvable, even if Whittenberger didn't solve it. – causative Oct 05 '22 at 02:35
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    "The truth" can be defined as *what you can be persuaded of with sufficient evidence,* assuming you're a reasonable enough person. Now, there are moral precepts you can be persuaded to adopt, based on hearing certain kinds of evidence. It's certainly of interest to you, to know which moral precepts you would settle on if you heard all the available evidence. Whether you want to call those moral precepts "objective" or not is merely a matter of labels. – causative Oct 05 '22 at 03:47
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    It is so trivial to find counter-examples to his analysis of ought, that I won't bother to write one down. I will, however, mention that there are many meanings of ought, and the one he is analyzing is not even the right one. – David Gudeman Oct 05 '22 at 04:34
  • @causative, your suggested definition of "truth" means that if someone persuades you with sufficient evidence that, say, Joe committed the murder, but in real life, Joe was ten miles away in the bed of his mistress at the time, then according to you definition it is still true that Joe committed the murder. – David Gudeman Oct 05 '22 at 04:36
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    @DavidGudeman If I was wrongly persuaded that Joe committed the murder, then I couldn't have been given sufficient evidence. For instance, I wasn't given the fact of Joe's presence in the bed of his mistress. *Sufficient* evidence would include, at minimum, all the base physical facts of the situation. More than that, sufficient evidence is an amount of evidence at which a reasonable person settles onto a conclusion, such that additional (correct, factual) evidence is not necessary and won't affect his conclusion. – causative Oct 05 '22 at 05:00
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    No, and, really, Whittenberger doesn't even try. "It is a fact that you had a good outcome" does not yield that one ought to repeat it. For that, we need the major premise that one ought to do what is "good", which is itself an ought. But Hume, or anybody else, never questioned that one can produce oughts from other oughts by combining them with is-es. The real question is what makes that "good", and how it conjures up the imperative that it ought to be done. Whittenberger has nothing to say about that. – Conifold Oct 05 '22 at 05:05
  • @causative, it sound like you are defining "sufficient evidence" to mean "all of the evidence required for me to determine the truth", which is circular. – David Gudeman Oct 05 '22 at 06:58
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    **Hume actually never said that one cannot derive ought from is, he simply said that this should be justified, that's all** – Nikos M. Oct 05 '22 at 07:05
  • @DavidGudeman No, it's not circular. I defined "sufficient evidence" above as "an amount of evidence at which a reasonable person settles onto a conclusion, such that additional (correct, factual) evidence is not necessary and won't affect his conclusion." Nowhere in that do I use the word "truth." Sufficient evidence is simply an amount of factual evidence after which additional factual evidence wouldn't change a reasonable person's mind (about whether Joe did it). Then, truth is defined as the propositional attitude of the reasonable person after having seen sufficient evidence. – causative Oct 05 '22 at 07:12
  • As mentioned in armand's answer, "ought" is not necessarily unique, in this sense one can justify "some ought" from the "is", although another can justify "another ought" from the same "is". Does this count as acceptable "is-ought" connection? According to me, it is, because there is no ap priori reason, an "is" should entail a unique course of action. – Nikos M. Oct 05 '22 at 08:24
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    @causative, then "sufficient evidence" essentially means omniscience, which means you know everything that is true, which is still circular. And there is another circularity. What evidence do you need to know to make this judgment? Well, true evidence, of course. How do you know that the evidence is true? There is also probably a circularity hidden in your idea of "reasonable". – David Gudeman Oct 05 '22 at 14:40
  • @DavidGudeman No, it doesn't "essentially mean omniscience," that's not how it is defined. Your second point does deserve response: a distinction is made between base material facts and truth - the truth includes the base material facts, but also possibly much more. The base material facts are part of the background assumption, whereas the truth also includes many things derived from and built upon that assumption. As there are two stratified classes of proposition - base material facts, and other truths built upon them - there is no circularity. – causative Oct 05 '22 at 18:38
  • I never understood why should and ought pose any problem whatsoever. As for why choose something: "*What is good, and what is not good - need we ask anyone to tell us these things?*" After 2000 years, humanity needs to grow up! – Scott Rowe Oct 06 '22 at 01:18
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    The gist of the famous is-ought problem is nothing but an objective definition of the form of good which is above, nobler and beyond all other forms (per Plato), that's why this is the hardest problem perhaps in philosophy. And if you deem your reference gives everyone a satisfactory definition of the good, then this problem could be said to be solved per humanity's standard... – Double Knot Oct 06 '22 at 03:04
  • I think it comes down to: "*You pays your money and you takes your chances.*" Agency is irreducible, inarguable, inexplicable, inescapable... It just **is**, and we *ought* to get used to it. – Scott Rowe Oct 06 '22 at 13:06
  • @causative -- it is the nature of science, and empiricism in general, that they cannot give certainty. Per Popper, all empirical and scientific conclusions are only tentative, and all can be overturned with additional evidence. Your postulated "sufficient evidence" as: "an amount of evidence... such that additional (correct, factual) evidence is not necessary and won't affect his conclusion" is, per Popper and how science is now done today, a null set. Using an impossible standard as a starting point to get to morality is -- not going to get you to "truth" much less across is/ought. – Dcleve Jan 01 '23 at 23:03
  • @Dcleve Take something simple as an example: "there is a carving of a bird in the room where I'm typing this." There is indeed a level of factual evidence that would lead a reasonable person to conclude this fact; a bunch of detailed photographs of the room from different angles, clearly showing the bird carving, along with a correct statement of the provenance of these photographs, should be sufficient. Having seen these photographs, a reasonable person would conclude there is a bird carving, and then there is no factually correct evidence that could ever convince him to change his mind. – causative Jan 02 '23 at 01:50
  • @Dcleve Not because he is absolutely 100% certain it is a bird carving - indeed there is still a chance in the reasonable person's mind that there is some trick that makes it only *look* like a bird carving - but because there will never be any *correct, factual evidence* of such a trick, because there is no such trick. – causative Jan 02 '23 at 01:58
  • @causative -- How does any data provide "such that additional (correct, factual) evidence is not necessary and won't affect his conclusion". Your example does not do that. A video file that shows you creating a deep fake of the photographs and their provenance, would convince any reasonable person that the carving does not exist. Just declaring that such data could never exist -- is not information available to ANY such reasonable person, and requires they be omniscient. AND -- you still have not touched the is/ought divide, you are still on "is". – Dcleve Jan 02 '23 at 06:07
  • @Dcleve Such a video file *would* convince any reasonable person that the carving does not exist, but the video file *is not correct, factual evidence* because I didn't create any such deep fake. I just made this exact point, in the previous comment. The premise is that only correct, factual evidence is presented to our hypothetical reasonable person, and we ask what the person would conclude in the limit as we provide more and more of such evidence. – causative Jan 02 '23 at 13:06
  • @Dcleve There's a mathematical theorem that if a sequence where each element is either the number 0 or the number 1 has a limit, then there must be a point in the sequence beyond which the sequence never changes any more. – causative Jan 02 '23 at 13:13
  • @causative -- neither you nor the putative "reasonable people" we postulate have direct access to reality, to know whether evidence is correct or factual. All we have is accumulations of evidence of degrees of plausible validity. Drawing inferences based on the presumption that you or anyone else has this absolute knowledge, is an invalid inference, and presumes Omniscience on your and their part. – Dcleve Jan 02 '23 at 23:08
  • @Dcleve Do not confuse a thing with someone's *knowledge* of the thing. I did not say or suggest that anyone knows for sure which evidence is factual. Nonetheless, some evidence is factual and some is not. – causative Jan 03 '23 at 03:59
  • @causative If nobody can know the ”factual” status of evidence then it is an unobtainable criteria. This unobtainable criteria is the one you set to consider evidence. – Dcleve Jan 03 '23 at 05:37
  • @Dcleve Okay. Nowhere did I claim it was an "obtainable criteria." I hope you aren't trying to suggest that because something cannot be known, that it is not relevant to the discourse, because that would be another error; the world is full of things we don't know about that nonetheless are very relevant to our lives. We never know for sure which germs are in the air at a given time and place, but they can still make us sick. – causative Jan 03 '23 at 05:53
  • @causative OK, so since "additional (correct, factual) evidence is not necessary and won't affect his conclusion" and "factual evidence" is an unobtainable criterion -- is there any content at all to this claim of yours? From your "clarifications" it parses as meaningless. – Dcleve Jan 03 '23 at 10:14
  • @Dcleve **The truth is defined as the propositional attitude that a reasonable person would settle on, if they were given all the base physical facts and time enough to consider them.** In this view, we begin with a restricted, relatively simple to conceive of set of "base physical facts" such as the set of positions of every atom over time, and via the rhetorical device of a "reasonable person", we expand this set of facts to include *all* truths, including abstract truths about mathematics, politics, or morality. – causative Jan 03 '23 at 14:11
  • @causitive -- you provided no "base physical facts" in your own example, and you have provided no justification for your assumption of convergence even in physical facts. Your appeal to "Truth" has by your own definitions been shown to be operationally irrelevant. That empiricism does not converge, was demonstrated when even Karl Popper, that strong advocate of uncertainty, was also taken in by this versimilitude fever dream. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/philosophy-of-science/article/abs/verisimilitude-or-the-approach-to-the-whole-truth/B6E0AD0447B9CE2D78CAC272E34209E6 – Dcleve Jan 03 '23 at 18:45

5 Answers5

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I have issues with the definition of "good" the author provides in the article.

He proposes "the fulfillment of the basic biological values of survival, reproduction, well-being, and advancement for all persons", but why should this be an objective moral metric? The mere fact that he has to propose it and argue for it tends to indicate it's not that "objective" at all.

Who decided it was "good" when I went to the shop last time? Because my well being improved thanks to it? But who said my well being ought to be the goal of my actions? The author is clearly talking from a consequentialist position, but who said we ought to be consequentialists?

I feel like many people would disagree with the conclusions the author would reach by the consistent application of his principles. For exemple: "I know a sizeable portion of people drafted in a war get killed, and I strongly feel getting killed is bad for me (*), so I ought to dodge the draft or desert".

Many would disagree and say I ought to serve my country, and I would have a really hard time proving them wrong with consequentialist arguments of the shape "if you want A, you ought to do B" because we strongly disagree about A to begin with. The way the author addresses this contradiction is not satisfying, because I can always say I don't care about "well-being, and advancement for all persons", I feel God is more important, or my country, or my own well being before every one else and he can't tell me why I ought to think otherwise.

Also, the idea that wrongdoers end up suffering bad consequences of their actions appears as quite naive and simplistic. He gives the exemple of rape, but considering how many rape cases end up in "he says she says" situations where the alleged rapist is at most inconvenienced, depending on how much depraved pleasure they got out of their crime, it might not be considered a net loss (and that's ignoring all the rapists who never get caught). What is more it seems by this logic it's getting caught that has bad consequences, and therefore the natural conclusion is the very cynical motto that "the only thing forbidden is getting caught", not a very moral position if we go by the general opinion, I'm afraid.

(*) but is it true? Maybe there is a place in paradise for people who died at war. At least there is no scientific proof of the contrary, which shows the shortcoming of claiming to have moral values based on scientific facts.

armand
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  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been [moved to chat](https://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/139666/discussion-on-answer-by-armand-has-the-is-ought-problem-finally-met-its-match). – Philip Klöcking Oct 06 '22 at 13:01
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Well, pleasant as this analysis is, it misses the core issue in the is/ought problem. Put simply, there is no necessary reason why the 'ought' statement must depend on factual historical experience. If I suggest you ought to go to a particular grocery store, it could be for any number of reasons:

  • I've had good experiences there, and bad experiences elsewhere, or...
  • I saw an advertisement that they were having a sale, or...
  • I drove past the store once and thought it 'looked interesting', or...
  • My sister-in-law owns the store, and I want to drive business her way, or...
  • The holy book ordains we will find salvation by doing commerce with others of our faith, such as the store owner...

Only the first implies any actual experience with the store that could be evaluated as a 'good' or 'bad' outcome. The rest are at best momentary impressions, and at worst actual manipulations against the interests of the listener. I mean, while it may in fact be the case that the road to salvation starts by shopping at Grocery X, that is clearly not a matter of personal historical experience.

Mr. Whittenberger's reasoning works fine for a limited class of prosaic worldly events, but it has no traction on more complex moral issues. Consider statements like:

  • You ought to get an abortion
  • You ought not to murder people who annoy you
  • You ought not to buy crypto
  • You ought to pray each day for forgiveness

Few (if any) people have sufficient experience on these kinds of events to evaluate them as factual 'is' statements. They instead have to rely on things like word-of-mouth, ideological positions, tenets of faith, philosophical analyses, beliefs, feelings, impressions, expertise, etc., none of which can be meaningfully reduced to 'is' statements in the way Whittenberger suggests.

Ted Wrigley
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    I don't agree with Whittenberger either but is/ought relation in your examples depends on what one counts as part of "is". Eg if "not having a child at this given instant" is part of my "is", easily follows that i "ought" to get an abortion. – Nikos M. Oct 05 '22 at 18:34
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    A further example is our needs at any given instant (eg being hungry, thirsty, etc..) Needs are the archetypal example of "is" that actually encodes an "ought" – Nikos M. Oct 05 '22 at 18:36
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    @NikosM.: That's not strictly correct. A woman who is pregnant has two courses forward: one with the child and one without. We can say that she **is** with child — that's an empirical fact — but we cannot easily say which path she **ought** to pursue. It's unlikely she herself has much (if any) experience with abortions or having children; certainly not enough to draw an empirical inference (an **is**) about 'good' or 'bad'. – Ted Wrigley Oct 05 '22 at 23:45
  • This is why humans have agency. – Scott Rowe Oct 06 '22 at 01:20
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    @ScottRowe: And the fact that humans have agency is why 'ought' cannot be reduced to 'is'. – Ted Wrigley Oct 06 '22 at 01:55
  • @TedWrigley the issue is not whether people have agency and whether there is more than one possible course of action (to which I agree), but whether each "ought" is derived and depends in an essential way to the "is", no matter if it is one or more than one. And indeed this is the case, and this clears a common misconception that "ought" is unrelated to "is" that some people claim without thinking too much. – Nikos M. Oct 06 '22 at 07:02
  • Perhaps if people understood that this is why humans have agency, they would realize that this question is not about something actual? In other words, they would move on to something that matters. – Scott Rowe Oct 06 '22 at 11:35
  • @NikosM.: How can there be more than one 'is'? Are you trying to invoke some sort of moral quantum superposition? We cannot use the singular state ('is') of the present moment to logically derive two distinct courses of action ('oughts'). The idea is logically inconsistent. – Ted Wrigley Oct 06 '22 at 11:56
  • @TedWrigley i did not say there are more than one is. – Nikos M. Oct 06 '22 at 12:02
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    @ScottRowe: But that's the sticking point. The real issue here is that people want to have agency, but want to discard responsibility. Moral assertions ('oughts') imply responsibility for actions and consequences (and thus dissonant emotions like shame, regret, or self-hatred). Reducing 'ought' to 'is' absolves all responsibility — we do what we do because that's what 'is' — and thus reduces cognitive dissonance. It's sadly nihilistic, but a powerful motivation to keep grasping after the fantasy. – Ted Wrigley Oct 06 '22 at 12:08
  • @TedWrigley what i did say is that ought is essentially depended on the is, even if it happens that ought is not unique (IE each ought) (leaving aside determinism as a position) – Nikos M. Oct 06 '22 at 12:14
  • @NikosM.: You said: *"but whether each 'ought' is derived and depends in an essential way to the 'is', no matter if it is one or more than one."* Either that implies there is more than one 'is', or it implies that you've confused the moral concept of 'ought' (which is a singular valuation) with the statistical concept of 'could' (which entails multiple possibilities without comparative valuation). At this moment I *could* do X, Y, or Z, but I only *ought* to do one of them. We can derive 'could' from 'is', but not 'ought'. – Ted Wrigley Oct 06 '22 at 12:17
  • @TedWrigley i simply account for the case where more than one ought can be justified from the same is. If ought is always unique, then my comment still holds. – Nikos M. Oct 06 '22 at 12:21
  • If people want to voluntarily give up their agency, I can find plenty of things for them to do. Wasn't there a movie about this idea? Can't quite recall. I know it was in the book "Stars in my Pocket Like Grains of Sand". Of course, they would have to decide that they should do that... Hmm. We see the source of the problem here. – Scott Rowe Oct 06 '22 at 12:46
  • @ScottRowe: People don't want to give up their agency. They want to have agency, but give up responsibility for their actions. They don't want to be told what to do; they want to do what they want to do without being told they are bad – Ted Wrigley Oct 06 '22 at 14:03
  • @TedWrigley if you want to see my argumentation see the discussion under [armand's answer](https://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/139666/discussion-on-answer-by-armand-has-the-is-ought-problem-finally-met-its-match) (there is no reason to replicate it) – Nikos M. Oct 06 '22 at 16:59
  • @NikosM.: I've read it; it's a superficial argument. No one denies that what 'is' bears on what 'ought'. We can't even talk about what 'ought' to be without considering what 'is' as context. But that in no way implies that what 'ought' to be can be determined by what 'is'. You might as well say that a pool player cannot ever decide what shot to make because the pool balls dictate his actions. The context constrains, it doesn't determine. – Ted Wrigley Oct 06 '22 at 18:24
  • @TedWrigley in what sense the example of someone in intolerable pain that his only basic option (thus his "ought") is to stop the pain, is superficial? – Nikos M. Oct 06 '22 at 18:43
  • @TedWrigley to avoid filling your answer also with comments you can reply in the chat. But certainly in this site i have seen a lot of people who think ought is unrelated to is. Glad to hear that is/ought relation cannot be denied. – Nikos M. Oct 06 '22 at 18:52
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I like to imagine Hume's is-ought problem with just laying pipes vs. actually connecting them to a water reservoir.

We need a source of the magical "ought"-fluid! Without it, I can lay pipes all day long yet the whole system will remain dry.

But if we have finally found a source of "ought", we sure can try to channel it somewhere else. This just means deriving another "ought" from a given "ought" with a philosophical argument. Hume never denied that this was possible.

So for any purported solution of Hume's is-ought problem, carefully look if there isn't a hidden source of "ought" somewhere!

In Gary Whittenberger's argument, it lies in the tacit assumption that we ought to aim for a "good outcome" (for ourselves).

I don't deny that this comes easy for most people, but it is still an "ought" supplied from the outside. And this issue gets way more pressing if we consider other people. E. g. in a slaver society, you could replace "grocery store" with "slave market" and get a "sensible" suggestion:

"You ought to shop at the slave market today".

So stealthily the pipes were connected to this "ought"-reservoir and the magical "ought"-fluid flows along. It didn't actually came from dry pipes as he suggested.

Disclaimer: I found the quoted argument rather crude compared to the usual attempts to derive "ought" from "is". So I didn't bother to read the whole essay.

viuser
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In short, no. The essence of the is/ought problem is that certain types of statements cannot be justified without some degree of subjectivity. If I state that such-and-such soccer club is the best in the world, and you ask me to justify my claim, I can make progress in a logical way by citing various exceptional attributes and achievements of the club- perhaps they have scored more goals than any other, perhaps they have the largest average attendances at their matches, perhaps their team is the most valuable, and so on, but no matter how many facts I marshal to support my argument, you can still challenge it by asking why do those facts matter, and not other facts. Ultimately opinion has to creep in somewhere to justify the conclusion.

Indeed, the way to resolve the is/ought problem once and for all is to recognise that it is not a problem but a distinction.

Marco Ocram
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The is-ought problem has long been solved, and not by Whittenberger. I recommend you read Viable Values for a discussion of the general method of bridging the is-ought gap using contingent predictions. This is a method that has been used by several philosophers to offer a moral philosophy that bridges the is-ought gap. Whittenberger is (very roughly) correct in his outline of what this method involves, but he is certainly not the first to use this method.

To deal with your specific question about the quoted section from Whittenberger, you should observe that this reasoning hinges on the idea that an outcome can be diagnosed as a "good outcome" for a person and others. This really just pushes things back a step. Any normative evaluation of a circumstance or outcome (e.g., that the outcome is "good") is part of the "ought" piece of the is-ought dichotomy. Remember that the "is" part is descriptive (you are pointing out that certain things exist and behave in certain ways) and the "ought" part is normative (you are saying that certain courses of action are good/bad and certain outcomes are good/bad). So this is not yet a solution to the is-ought problem, but it is pushing further back towards a more fundamental goal, presumably with the intention of having some primary contingency of this kind.

Despite this shortcoming, this is alluding to, and pushing you towards the correct solution, which lies in contingent prediction. The way that other philosophers have solved the is-ought problem is to extract some overarching normative goal that can be considered as a primary and then they say that the is-ought is bridged conditionally on the chosen objective to pursue that goal. In this formulation, you go from an is to an "ought" by saying:

If the facts of the world are X then doing A will most effectively achieve your goal of G. Thus, since your goal is G, you ought to do A.

The first part of this is the contingent prediction and the second part is the encouragement. Note that the contingent prediction requires you to have already established an overarching goal G that can be used as the contingency in the statement. Since this overarching goal is normative in nature, this is just pushing things back to an ultimate goal that still must bridge the is-ought gap somehow. The general method by which other philosophers have found an ultimate goal that bridges the is-ought gap is to look for a goal that is axiomatic --- i.e., it is implicit in all action and is cannot be denied without some kind of contradiction. If you read Viable Values you find a detailed argument that living and flourishing can be considered an axiomatic goal of this kind, since the occurrence of any type of action (including arguing against the argument I put here) involves living. I will not attempt to summarise this argument here, but I recommend you read it to see both the specific axiomatic argument and also the general technique of contingent prediction.

Ben
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    None of this answer crosses the is/ought barrier, because the whole point is to figure out if we can derive morality as a goal. The closest you come is waving at Viable Values in this quote: "you find a detailed argument that living and flourishing can be considered an axiomatic goal of this kind, since the occurrence of any type of action (including arguing against the argument I put here) involves living." Of course, one may live, and thrive, while being an evil SOB, so the hand waving does not actually point toward MORAL goals, all you imply is that we must have goals. – Dcleve Jan 01 '23 at 23:25
  • It is odd to assert that direct reference to a philosophical treatise on the subject constitutes "hand-waving". Not every subject can be fit into a short SE post. – Ben Jan 01 '23 at 23:37
  • You claimed a widely cited barrier in philosophy has been breached, but do not even summarize how this was done. And the hints you provided suggest this “solution” is not even relevant to the problem. An answer here should describe this supposed “solution”, and THEN provide the citations that allow interested parties to examine this accomplishment ourselves. Citing a consensus of other philosophers supporting this claimed achievement would also be highly relevant. – Dcleve Jan 02 '23 at 02:48