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I am aware of the classical classification of logical calculus as apriori. I have also read pretty much anything I could get my hands on regarding "logic", including "New Essays on the A Priori" edited by Paul Boghossian and Christopher Peacocke.

These readings often mentioned the idea of a deductive inference being carried out without the need of relying on any empirical knowledge. But I am still not convinced about the origin of these, so to speak, rules.

Let's take a basic "modus ponens" as an example. Whenever I know that "if p, then q" and "p", accepting "q" is so much imposing on me, I am not able to deny it. But what exactly does that imply?

Is it somehow within human nature to understand, accept and use deductive inference? Would a hypothetical human being that has NO empirical knowledge (let's say, a human being that has no senses whatsoever, only supplied with raw data directly to his/her brain) still be able to carry out logical inferences?

Or, is "logic" developed on the basis of experiments, exactly the same way any other natural science is? This view would accept as genesis of "modus ponens", the scenario, where i.e. some ancient greek observed that since whenever he threw an apple up, it fell down eventually ("if p, then q"); and because he'd just threw an apple up ("p"), it surely will fall down in a moment ("q"). Our greek repeated this experiment, say, 100 times, and so he'd formulated a law. It's an inductive reasoning.

I am curious about both points of view and maybe not so much about the "classics", as about personal understandings.

k-wasilewski
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  • Unfortunately "brain in a vat" theories like your middle paras aren't exactly testable. – Fizz Mar 07 '21 at 14:34
  • Related enough https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/79413/what-logic-comes-closest-to-how-humans-think – Fizz Mar 07 '21 at 14:43
  • @Fizz I've read this discussion, which deals with modelling of the human reasoning, but my question is about its primary origin. – k-wasilewski Mar 07 '21 at 15:42
  • Mkay, it seems to come down to a debate/discussion on Platonism vs psychologism (or something like that). – Fizz Mar 07 '21 at 15:55
  • Your use of terminology may be faulty. Deductive reasoning inference is based on concepts first. Concepts here ought to be universal & apply to more than one subject matter. This is why medieval philosophers identified how people reason are formally & those humans being familiar to the topic or subject matter. Logic was divided in 2 ways: FORMAL & MATERIAL. Material again is based on subject matter thinking. What people will call case by case basis. The reasoning works here but might not work over there. Inference rules can be shown by inductive means. You make it seem as goal seeking first. – Logikal Mar 07 '21 at 17:10
  • The concept pre exists the inductive process. So perhaps you are missing the point. The concept is created first then we look in the real scenarios to see if it works 100 percent of the time or is it just a percentage. We can only have absolutes & percentages unless you can show a 3rd possibility exists. We can have confidence in the deductive reasoning inferences because they are universal and always derive truth when we start with truth. This set up avoids the possibility of true premises followed by a false conclusion. Concepts are ideas. Ideas come before the inductive process. – Logikal Mar 07 '21 at 17:17
  • Although badly titled, this q discusses the same topic, or at least the top-voted answer does https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/14375/how-fundamental-is-logic – Fizz Mar 07 '21 at 17:21
  • @Logikal So you want to call it an idea, not induction, fine. But then, again: does the notion of a "pure idea" exist? Or does it mean that all of our civilization's reasoning is based on experience, essentially? – k-wasilewski Mar 07 '21 at 17:31
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    @Fizz That's an interesting view, possibly grounding my a priori option, however I can't seem to sufficiently grasp the idea of logic being "grounded on human activities of [...]". Do these activities require any knowledge, fundamentally? And if so, what knowledge? I guess I need to read Wittgenstein's "Philosophical Investigations"... – k-wasilewski Mar 07 '21 at 17:40
  • @k-wasilewski, you are incorrect. I did not say induction is an idea.Induction clearly means physical application as in an experience or a science. Your terminology has to be straight to make inferences.The point I made was deductive reasoning is conceptual first. To pragmatic people like you you understand better when there is a physical application. So the inferences can be shown physically & this corresponds to the original idea BEFORE the application. For people like you to understand a concept you will ask, "How do you know that . . . Is true?" That thinking tells a lot about the person. – Logikal Mar 07 '21 at 18:14
  • @Logikal I'm not sure what your last sentence's trying to acheive.. And I agree that my previous comment wasn't 100% logically valid (this would lengthen every argument to an unconvenient extent). What I meant by "it" in the first sentence of my previous comment was "the first human action in the process of performing/developing a reasoning". – k-wasilewski Mar 07 '21 at 18:26
  • @@k-wasilewski The first step in deductive reasoning is an IDEA.That idea in Philosophy is usually called a "Proposition" as in an idea used in the inference making process. We do not start with a PHYSICAL APPLICATION or PHYSICAL ACTIVITY & then figure things out as you go. That process is what you refer to as INDUCTIVE reasoning. Inductive reasoning is not idea based but deals with crossing bridges as you go.One must have subject knowledge of the topic on hand & experience. In other words you need more than just a thought process as reasoning.Deductive reasoning does not require experience. – Logikal Mar 07 '21 at 18:42
  • @@k-wasilewski, my last sentence in the previous comment was not an attack on your person but implies how some people are more PRACTICAL versus people who are Conceptual. It was not meant to BELITTLE or disrespect. I just ran out of space to explain it. You sound as if x is not physically applicable then it is useless or you wouldn't have knowledge. This is a bad idea. To say x can't be true without any physical Application Is a stretch. To say x can't be true without evidence is also the same stretch as is without references you can't possibly be truthful. All of those are bad IDEAS. – Logikal Mar 07 '21 at 18:49
  • @k-wasilewski, Objective truth is not under the domain of the human species. Things can be true with or without human beings. That means x is objectively true regardless if I had sources to quote, personal experience with x, and so on. Objective truth is independent from human beings or human awareness. Your approach in this question seems to imply that truth RELIES ON HUMAN BEINGS & someone's awareness of x. This is why you lean towards truth being physical alone. As if we can't physically verify x we don't know if x is true. This is bad reasoning. Even if it works 3 days a week. – Logikal Mar 07 '21 at 19:01
  • Let us [continue this discussion in chat](https://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/120546/discussion-between-k-wasilewski-and-logikal). – k-wasilewski Mar 07 '21 at 19:15
  • @k-wasilewski, Chat is not letting me log in. – Logikal Mar 07 '21 at 19:20
  • @Logikal Thanks for clearing that out :) Now, back to the subject at hand. I think we can't properly understand each other, and it's not the fault of logics we use, rather a fault of some enthymemes.. I never had an intention to imply that humans have to start building a logic with an application of it. Is my understanding correct that you simply defend a Platonic view on the logical concepts, which therefore belong to the world of ideas? But if so, that is still off-topic, because I asked about the process of gaining access to these ideas. – k-wasilewski Mar 07 '21 at 19:26
  • @k-wasileeski, you did it AGAIN. By PROCESS do you mean something PHYSICAL? Why can't one just have an IDEA. You again seem to imply that the PHYSICAL must come first. That is a scientific approach not a Philosophical approach. Philosophy is not considered a science. The ideas are to be universal and not specific to a certain topic matter. There is no crossing bridges as we go. We know bad reasoning by concept and then we demonstrate physically for others who are not conceptual people to understand. – Logikal Mar 07 '21 at 19:35
  • @Logikal Ok, now you clarified it, your answer to the chicken-and-egg problem is that a pure idea comes first and that's exactly one of my two options. I'd say that's a classical understanding. – k-wasilewski Mar 07 '21 at 20:15
  • Does this answer your question? [Is Logic Empirical?](https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/a/37787/9148) – Conifold Mar 08 '21 at 10:09

2 Answers2

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This subject comes up quite a bit in different forms. Sometimes as the question, Is logical empirical? Or, What justification can be given for using logic? Or, Is logic subjective? There is a distinction between a particular system or calculus of logic, of which there are many, and speaking of 'logic' in a general sense. So, one should distinguish between asking, What is the justification for using this system of logic as opposed to that one? and asking, What justification is there for deductive reasoning generally?

You might like to look at Conifold's answers to these questions:

Is Logic Empirical?

Is there a deduction analog to the problem of induction?

and my answers to these questions:

What justifications have been given for using particular systems of logical calculus?

References for the justification of the use of Logic

Bumble
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  • I appreciate these references very much, I'll dive into them and then, if some questions arise, maybe comment again here.. – k-wasilewski Mar 07 '21 at 20:18
  • Your answers are very informative, thank you again for your time. And yes, it does pretty much exhaust the topic (at least for me). But what striked me the most, was the citation from Quine's 'Truth by convention': "In a word, the difficulty is that if logic is to proceed mediately from conventions, logic is needed for inferring logic from the conventions". – k-wasilewski Mar 08 '21 at 16:37
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What does "a priori" truly mean? To get at something so fundamental to thought, we must look at what is physically happening as you think. From a physical perspective, your brain's neurons have certain connection weights, which cause them to activate with varying intensity, and you make inferences and assertions as a result of these weights and activations. When you believe a proposition, or accept an inference rule, the inference rule or proposition must be stored as a pattern of neural connection weights. This connection-pattern causes you to behave in a certain way - if you have a connection-pattern corresponding to a proposition P, and then someone asks you, "Do you think P?", the neural connection weights for P may cause you to answer, "Yes, I do."

So this is our primitive notion of a believed proposition, inside the brain: it is a pattern of connection weights, linked to and causing a pattern of behavior.

Now, how did this pattern for P come to arise? Here we want to distinguish two cases. In the a posteriori case, the pattern for P arose as a result of inference in your brain. You at first believed Q and R ("had the brain patterns for Q and R"), and your attention was called to Q and R ("Q and R activated together with your brain's attention network"), and as a result, a precursor pattern to P arose (a neural activation pattern, part of short-term memory), and as a result of that, your brain acquired the connection-pattern P. Or we may say more concisely, from Q and R you inferred P.

The a priori case is simply any way you acquired P other than the above process. Perhaps you were born with the connection-pattern P. Perhaps you were not born with it, but your genes caused you to form it at a certain age. In these cases, you never deduced P from anything else - you simply knew it implicitly.

Now to apply this to your specific question. Is modus ponens a priori? This depends a bit on what you mean by "modus ponens." The brain does seem to come with some kind of inference baked-in. Even a rabbit has neural patterns that can be loosely described like, "There is a carrot over there. If there is a carrot over there, I can get the carrot by walking to it. Therefore, I can get the carrot by walking to it." The rabbit does not do this verbally - this is a loose description of a nonverbal neural process. But the rabbit (or any animal) does somehow represent the world, and draw deductions between different ideas about the world, in order to act effectively to obtain food, and these deductions could be described loosely in words as something like modus ponens.

So by that interpretation, the rabbit does a priori know a kind of nonverbal modus ponens, and so do humans.

Or we may interpret modus ponens a different way: as the specific symbolic skill, allowing us to take a material implication "A->B" (verbally) and an assertion "A" (verbally) and conclude "B" (verbally). Rabbits cannot do this. In fact, a lot of humans, even adults, don't understand the material implication either; see the Wason selection task. It must be learned, which makes it a posteriori.

causative
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  • Regarding the rabbit example: basically, associative learning which is extremely widespread (if not the basis of most learned behaviors) is all about producing p->q types of rules in a neural network... and then applying them. – Fizz Mar 08 '21 at 08:00
  • Although more properly speaking this is Bayesian inference because rule derivation and application is probabilistic, i.e. not 100%. Here's one (open access) paper of the many one can find on this topic https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1003037 – Fizz Mar 08 '21 at 08:09
  • However, the Wason selection task is more complicated, as it involves both MT and MP. As I discussed in a linked question (that you asked), even non-human primates (never mind rabbits) are pretty bad at deriving MT-style rules, i.e. it seems to take a lot more neural network machinery/learning to produce MT rules than MP rules. It seems the extra hurdle for MT is that additional effort/coding is need for the fact that two conditions are mutually exclusive. – Fizz Mar 08 '21 at 08:29
  • @Fizz You are right that networks learn p->q type of rules. Some neurons are probabilistic, although this is not the same as Bayesian inference. Actually I would say that MT is just as natural as MP on a neural level. The chief way artificial neural networks are trained is with backpropagation, which has a similar structure to MT: the neuron produces a result, the result is partially wrong, therefore the neuron and/or the neuron's input is wrong (and changes in the direction of being more correct). – causative Mar 08 '21 at 08:50
  • @Fizz when the rabbit uses something like "modus ponens" though, this is not always so simple as supplying an activation A to a network whose weights represent A->B and getting the result B. Rather, A is a *neural behavior pattern*; neurons are activating in a certain pattern over time, which may involve temporally repeating spike trains. A->B and B are also neural behavior patterns. A->B specifically is a pattern with the property that when it appears in conjunction with A, the pattern for B increases in strength. – causative Mar 08 '21 at 09:04
  • I don’t think this applies well. You make the assumption that Propositions are beliefs or place them very close in relationship. Propositions are not beliefs so I don’t see how they would be stored and mapped in the mind. Deductive reasoning doesn’t necessarily come from memory. We can deduce right on the spot. If the inference starts with true propositions then the rule of inference should give an output of another TRUE proposition. Once one makes the same type of inference I am still not sure why storage is needed. You can manually work out a solution each time. – Logikal Mar 08 '21 at 13:11
  • @causative your rabbit example's very nice & simple, thanks! I have zero knowledge about human (animal) cognitive theory, but am tempted to generalize your example to the statement regarding a learning process, as follows. "Animals are able to learn by observation and imitation, that is by applying (non-verbaly of course) the following sentences: 'The thing I see is eating a carrot', 'The thing I see is similar to me', 'I can do whatever the things similar to me do' and reasoning from them that: 'I can eat a carrot'". And that would be a very primitive form of applying an a priori logic. – k-wasilewski Mar 08 '21 at 17:13