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What is the meaning of this, and is this an example of bad writing?

"For it will be possible to construct in terms of the formal devices a system of very general formulas, a considerable number of which can be regarded as, or are closely related to, patterns of inferences the expression of which involves some or all of the devices..." (Logic and Conversation; Grice, 1975)

Source: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/ls/studypacks/Grice-Logic.pdf

J D
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Harman
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  • It has a meaning, but yes, it's an example of bad writing (though possibly intentionally so). It's unnecessarily complex. – Hot Licks Dec 13 '20 at 17:35
  • "in terms of the formal devices" is a "parenthetical", and should be set off by commas (or parentheses). – Hot Licks Dec 13 '20 at 17:37
  • @HotLicks We do philosophy here, not subjective evaluation of stylistic concerns of English like over in [EnglishSE](https://english.stackexchange.com/). :D The OP is welcome to seek sylistic advice there. – J D Dec 13 '20 at 17:58
  • @JD - Yeah, but it would likely be tossed out of EL&U for lack of research. – Hot Licks Dec 13 '20 at 17:59
  • @HotLicks Fair enough! :D Philosophy is a discipline, I suspect, more inclined to deal with the ambiguities inherent in questions of well-formedness of questions and tolerant of the innovation of language since by definition it encourages questions about what constitutes a question and answer to begin with, and seeks to delve into mysteries of the experience and foundations of language. – J D Dec 13 '20 at 18:05
  • @JD - Don't ask me to explain that sentence! – Hot Licks Dec 13 '20 at 18:07
  • @HotLicks I won't, as long as you don't insist I write in two-word subject-predicate constructions. ;) Philosophy might also be a discipline which doesn't judge those of us whose psycholinguistic constitutions aren't so readily apt to groan when the grammatical potentials of the human mind are allowed to flourish in accordance with their capacities. – J D Dec 13 '20 at 18:08
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    It is an example of bad quoting, here is the quote in context:"*An outline of a not uncharacteristic formalist position may be given as follows: Insofar as logicians are concerned with the formulation of very general patterns of valid inference, the formal devices possess a decisive advantage over their natural counterparts. For it will be possible to construct in terms of the formal devices a system of very general formulas, a considerable number of which can be regarded as, or are closely related to, patterns of inferences the expression of which involves some or all of the devices:*". – Conifold Dec 13 '20 at 19:22
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    "*Such a system may consist of a certain set of simple formulas that must be acceptable if the devices have the meaning that has been assigned to them, and an indefinite number of further formulas, many of them less obviously acceptable, each of which can be shown to be acceptable if the members of the original set are acceptable. We have, thus, a way of handling dubiously acceptable patterns of inference, and if, as is sometimes possible, we can apply a decision procedure, we have an even better way.*" – Conifold Dec 13 '20 at 19:27
  • @Conifold I'm afraid the added lines make no difference to the quotation in question. The preceding sentences explain that this position is representative of typical formalists; the succeeding lines say that any from a set of axioms, infinitely many well-formed propositions can be constructed – both of which are fine by themselves, but don't really answer my query (c.f. my reply to J.D.) – Harman Dec 30 '20 at 15:33
  • @JD I appreciate your enthusiasm but I'm concerned with whether the author is making a substantive interesting claim, or merely playing playing with words. I'm suggesting that Grice's rather complex sentence structure overwhelms working memory, but beyond that is incoherent and meaningless. If I break down his sentence to claims, they are: 1) Using these formal devices, we can create a system of formulae 2) These formulae would (approximately) reflect inferences (e.g. modus ponens) 3) To express such inferences we need these formal devices. [cont] – Harman Dec 30 '20 at 15:44
  • @JD [cont.] It's plain these three claims add up to a truism (at best) and vacuous pompous bad writing (at worst). Hopefully you can appreciate that this isn't so much about stylistic concerns (appropriate capitalisation and semicolons, etc.) as much as the force of claims. – Harman Dec 30 '20 at 15:45
  • The preceding explains the context in which formal devices are to be related to the natural patterns of inference, and the succeeding explains the utility of the exercise. And there is nothing incoherent or meaningless about generating complex patterns of inference by formal means and thereby representing them as combinations of simpler patterns expressed by formal devices. Nor does it overwhelm the working memory, but it does connect the preceding to the succeeding. Sentences are understood not by breaking them down into pieces in isolation, but by relating those pieces to broader context. – Conifold Dec 30 '20 at 23:11
  • Well, certainly, your explication on your rather ambiguous question is helpful. I have to agree that the sentence might challenge some people, but it seems rather manageable to me too. The diction and sentence structure is sophisticated, but it is perfectly sensible. The claim is highly substantive insofar as it states that there is a dichotomy between formal and natural language usage when it comes to complex inference, and by isolating and comparing segments of each by the analysis of the applicability of the formal devices, sometimes with a methodology, it becomes simpler to detect fallacy. – J D Dec 31 '20 at 13:48
  • This is particularly important because the use of formalisms, let's say, in examining components of an IBE argument might contain multiple components of deduction, induction, proof-theoretic or model-theoretic, and so on, it's easier to see if the natural language is concealing specious reasoning, or that likewise if a model-theoretic formalism perhaps over-generates. Often times, by reducing natural language expression to symbolic formalisms, it's easier to see the existential quantification, bound variables, domains of discourse, and so on, and this is particularly true in technical proofs. – J D Dec 31 '20 at 13:53
  • Pompous? It sounds like you have an emotional objection to the complex structure that he uses, but psycholinguistics is very clear that there is a a degree of variability from individual to individual to chunk, retain details, parse syntax, and so on. To some extent, the beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and if you find it pompous, that's certainly your right. Sentence seems quite clear to me, and I believe that within the context of the passage, the sentence serves it's purpose, complexity aside. Ultimately, Grice's conceptual contributions to philosophy of language are beyond reproach. – J D Dec 31 '20 at 13:59
  • Some people are good at sprints, and some people are good at running distance. Distance runners run prefer to run with distance runners. – J D Dec 31 '20 at 14:02
  • @JD You have offered several arguments for Grice's claim in the preceding line regarding the advantage of formalism over its natural language counterparts, and defended Grice's calibre and reputation. What remains unexplained is why any of this should matter. After all, my question simply concerns Grice's argument for his claim and, more specifically, whether that argument is more than a patchwork of inconveniently phrased statements. – Harman Dec 31 '20 at 21:57
  • @Conifold (and JD) To substantiate his (rather bold) claim, Grice only says that using those devices we can create formulae that approximately mimic patterns of inference, and these formulae would require those devices. But how on earth is that an argument! I might as well advance similar claims for Python or C++, by systematically replacing 'formal device' with python operator in his so-called argument. Once you see the vacuity and circular nature of his claim, you can't help thinking if the profundity or validity was an illusion on account of bad, complex writing. – Harman Dec 31 '20 at 22:02
  • @JD Although, I believe we have reached an impasse. It's better to return to this question when I have developed stamina for long distance running, or the scales have fallen from your eyes, and you see through these lowly verbal tricks that con-artists and famous philosophes employ. – Harman Dec 31 '20 at 22:04
  • @HarmanDeep lol Now, we get to your question! You concede the text in question has semantic import because you have done an excellent job recapitulating it. This is the symbol grounding problem in effect. Text is symbolic and symbols aren't reality, so what is the actual import of using logical consequence in a formalism if it inherently doesn't settle conceptual questions and matters of fact... what's the point of, in the Shakespearean tradition, words, words, words? That is a different question than does the surface structure of the text... – J D Jan 01 '21 at 19:28
  • Let us [continue this discussion in chat](https://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/117925/discussion-between-j-d-and-harman-deep). – J D Jan 01 '21 at 19:28

1 Answers1

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Short Answer

Technically speaking one can have both coherence in meaning, and be bad writing. Just based on the fact that this is a famous logician in a peer-reviewed journal makes the probability of this being incoherent minuscule. As such, the meaning is absolutely coherent, but the question of whether it is bad writing is subjective. What constitutes 'bad' writing is a claim that is open to interpretation.

Long Answer

It is indisputable that Grice is widely recognized as a seminal expert in the philosophy of language. The fact is that H.P. Grice is a famous theorist on meaning. It would be a little bit of a stretch to claim that Grice is incoherent in any of his published writing. From WP:

One of Grice's two most influential contributions to the study of language and communication is his theory of meaning, which he began to develop in his article "Meaning", written in 1948 but published only in 1957 at the prodding of his colleague, P. F. Strawson.3 Grice further developed his theory of meaning in the fifth and sixth of his William James lectures on "Logic and Conversation", delivered at Harvard in 1967. These two lectures were initially published as "Utterer's Meaning and Intentions" in 1969 and "Utterer's Meaning, Sentence Meaning, and Word Meaning" in 1968, and were later collected with the other lectures as the first section of Studies in the Way of Words in 1989.

We'll tackle what Grice is stating in this sentence last, however, let's address the second aspect of your question: 'bad' writing.

Remember, writing is the use of a particular medium of communication to move thoughts back and forth, primarily through the use of sentences to embody propositions. There's a lot going on there philosophically! A sentence is a philosophical object that exemplifies syntax, and a proposition is one that exemplifies semantics. This can be referred to as the medium-message dichotomy. One famous quotation recognizes this generally recognized dichotomy:

"The medium is the message" is a phrase coined by the Canadian communication theorist Marshall McLuhan and introduced in his Understanding Media: The Extensions of Man, published in 1964.1 McLuhan proposes that a communication medium itself, not the messages it carries, should be the primary focus of study. He showed that artifacts as media affect any society by their characteristics, or content.3

What constitutes 'bad' writing is dependent on many factors, of which particularly important is the grammatical abilities of the reader. That's because how an author expresses themselves and how a reader interprets the expression are NOT the same. 'Good' writing is generally understood to be effective writing, that is, successful in an empirical sense of communicating the experiences of the author to the reader. Ideas on what constitutes 'good' and 'bad' writing are all over the Internet, and here's an example. Thus, philosophically, an argument has to be made and defended to determine if the claim that this writing is 'good' or 'bad' is true. And English teachers get paid to handle this every day.

Among philosophers, who tend to have excellent linguistic and logic skills, and who often score the highest on the LSAT (by major, along with mathematicians), this would be considered 'good' writing simply based on the fact that it was allowed to be published by professional philosophical editors who wouldn't tolerate either incoherent sentences or bad writing.

In days past, good writing was often conceived to look like a writing from Ralph Waldo Emerson:

I greet you on the recommencement of our literary year. Our anniversary is one of hope, and, perhaps, not enough of labor. We do not meet for games of strength or skill, for the recitation of histories, tragedies, and odes, like the ancient Greeks; for parliaments of love and poesy, like the Troubadours; nor for the advancement of science, like our co-temporaries in the British and European capitals. Thus far, our holiday has been simply a friendly sign of the survival of the love of letters amongst a people too busy to give to letters any more. As such it is precious as the sign of an indestructible instinct. Perhaps the time is already come when it ought to be, and will be, something else; when the sluggard intellect...

Today Strunk and White's Elements of Style and Ernest Hemingway are the norm:

The rain will stop, the night will end, the hurt will fade. Hope is never so lost that it can't be found.

Now, as to the original quotation itself, let's break apart the complex construction:

"For it will be possible to construct in terms of the formal devices a system of very general formulas, a considerable number of which can be regarded as, or are closely related to, patterns of inferences the expression of which involves some or all of the devices..."

The easiest way of doing this is converting the surface structure (syntax) using the deep structure (semantics). Let's attempt it:

It's possible to build with formal systems. The formal systems will use formulas. Most of those general formulas will be or be like patterns of inferences. Those inferences will use the devices...

And there we have it. Instead of a single sentence, the propositions can be rewritten as a series of short sentences. The question of coherence of course is more broadly related to the passage of the text. Some philosophers such as John Searle are remarkably lucid in their prose, but most in the Western Canon resemble this. Descartes, Spinoza, and Kant are hard to tackle, but they are worth building up your grammar skills.

If you have a specific question about the grammatical constructions, feel free to post on English SE and ping me. I love diagramming sentences. If you have additional questions about the content of the paper, don't hesitate to post them as additional Q&A-style questions. Searle, Grice, and Strawson are intellectual good times!

J D
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  • Interested users can see my comments to my post; unfortunately, everyone has completely misunderstood the issue at hand. While I appreciate JD's enthusiasm, appeal to Grice's authority is fundamentally mistaken, and their references to Chomskyan thesis are misconceived and, more importantly, quite irrelevant. – Harman Dec 30 '20 at 15:48