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It is absolutely bewildering that this argument even exists when it only argues against the Christian conception of god. In Islam, which is the fastest growing religion and has the second most adherents, there is no literal conception of perfect goodness in God found anywhere in the Qur’an. And yet to this day, popular encyclopedias such as the SEP maintain that this is the conception of god in Islam. It simply isn’t true. How is this encyclopedia respected when it can’t even get basic conceptions of god right?

Secondly, in order to make an argument from evil, one must first define what evil is. But evil is a concept that obviously only exists in one’s head. One cannot get an ought from an is. There is no objective, ontological status of the concept of evil, so why is this argument taken seriously at all in philosophy?

Here is the relevant section as to where God is referred to as All-Loving when this attribute doesn’t exist anywhere in the traditional Islamic conceptions of Him or in the Qur’aan: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/arabic-islamic-religion/#ProbEvil. “ One of the important problems for Abrahamic religions is to explain the presence of evil given the assumption that an all-wise, all-just, all-powerful and all-loving God created and is continuously conserving the world”

Even a cursory glance at the Qur’an would make it obvious that Allah, for example, does not love those who don’t believe in Him.

thinkingman
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    If you quote an authoritative reference like SEP, especially when you're pointing out its gaffes, it's best to add relevant quotes. Otherwise its good to see you're moving on from ill formed question about ill defined entities like God – Rushi Aug 17 '23 at 08:39
  • I have added the relevant section. Here you go: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/arabic-islamic-religion/#ProbEvil – thinkingman Aug 17 '23 at 08:49
  • “ One of the important problems for Abrahamic religions is to explain the presence of evil given the assumption that an all-wise, all-just, all-powerful and all-loving God created and is continuously conserving the world” – thinkingman Aug 17 '23 at 08:50
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    Notice the fine difference between what you claimed and what SEP has — Abrahamic vs Islam. It is a peculiar feature of Christianity that evil is **reified**. Every religion/culture has evil in the ordinary sense of strongly bad, ie an *adjective*. Only Christianity has Evil with a capital 'E' becoming an abstract noun, then concreting into Satan etc. – Rushi Aug 17 '23 at 08:56
  • Abrahamic includes Islam. Therefore it is incorrect. If I say that the Abrahamic conception of god involves a Trinity, I would be obviously incorrect. It’s the same case here. – thinkingman Aug 17 '23 at 08:57
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    And yet, Islamic theologians were discussing the problem of evil and theodicy since middle ages, see e.g. [The Challenge of Evil in Islamic Thought](https://brill.com/view/journals/orie/49/3-4/article-p173_1.xml?language=en). Not to mention that in the primary source we read:"*So seek your Lord’s forgiveness and turn to Him in repentance. Surely my Lord is Most Merciful, All-Loving.*" [Quran 11:90](https://quran.com/11?startingVerse=90). The Arabic word is *Al-Wadud*, and it is repeated in [85:14](https://quran.com/85), with "All-Forgiving" added. – Conifold Aug 17 '23 at 09:33
  • Al-Wudud means Most Loving, not All-Loving. The point is that there is no concept of “perfectly good” in Islam. It is similar to the Most Merciful attribute of Allah. Simply put your cursor over that word on the same site you linked and it’ll show you what it directly means. The point is that God is NOT omnibenevolent in Islam but IS omniscient and omnipotent. – thinkingman Aug 17 '23 at 09:50
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    The problem of evil was first formulated by Epicurus, about -300. It obviously is not meant to address only the christian god. – armand Aug 17 '23 at 10:26
  • If you agree (not that you necessarily should), that 'good' and 'evil' are described in the Bible, then any 'problem of evil' (for Christianity) will exist in relation to those descriptions/concepts. Of course, this still leaves the problem of interpretation. We know the Bible is interpreted in many different ways. But in general, if 'evil' is deemed as something like 'unnecessary' suffering, then the POE is coherent and fair, although of course open to counters, including what is for many the unsatisfying 'God works in mysterious ways' (edited to reflect Armand's comment). – Futilitarian Aug 17 '23 at 10:28
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    Nice! There are floods everywhere, but it is the floods in Toronto that interest us ... I mean you! – Agent Smith Aug 17 '23 at 14:13
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    For the problem of evil, the difference between "all" and "most" is immaterial and largely rhetorical. The Christian God is not literally "all" loving either, he does not "love" sin and torments sinners in hell, just like Allah. Nor is either of them literally "all" powerful, as creating unliftable rocks shows. They are as "..." as possible, and this is what *omni* stands for, whether it is rendered as "all" or "most". The problem of evil then comes up because detractors claim that God or Allah could be *more* "loving" than what we happen to observe, and theodicy is there to argue otherwise. – Conifold Aug 17 '23 at 20:28

4 Answers4

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Normally I try to respond to questions on their terms, rather than quibble over the background premises. However, the OP is trying to denigrate the main basis for peer-reviewed citations such as we are supposed to be using on the PhilosophySE, as if a vague "error" in one article invalidates the entire Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (I should note that there are many errors there, but if the preface paradox applies to shorter texts by one author, how much more does it apply to an indefinitely larger text by myriads of others). This notwithstanding that SEP entries are frequently updated, even to the point of substantive revision, to try to correct for deficits and mistakes; the authors of all entries are named per entry, so if someone objects to something they say, one can email them with one's concerns. Considering the number of errors thinkingman has made on the PhilosophySE over their time here, I would caution them against calling for the dismissal of others lest thinkingman be dismissed similarly.

Now Yazici[22] notes:

Based on a question posed by global philosophy of religion project regarding the absence of literal attribution of omnibenevolence to God in the Qur’ān, this paper aims to examine how to understand perfect goodness in Islam. I will first discuss the concept of perfect goodness and suggest that perfect goodness is not an independent attribute on its own and it is predicated on other moral attributes of God without which the concept of perfect goodness could hardly be understood. I will examine perfect goodness by a specific emphasis on the attribute of justice as one of the conditions to be satisfied by a perfectly morally good being. In so doing, I will appeal to the distinctions made among great-making properties by Daniel Hill, and Al-Ghazālī’s definition of justice by applying them to God’s moral attributes. I will argue that justice has a crucial role in maximality-optimality balance between great-making properties and it seems quite difficult, if not impossible, to conceive of goodness without justice. Having said that, I will claim that the conceptual frame I suggest sheds light on why omnibenevolence is not literally attributed to God in the Qur’ān. Then, I will briefly show how the divine attributes mentioned in the Qur’ān and the discussions about divine names and attributes in the Islamic tradition supports the understanding of perfect goodness I defend. Consequently, I will try to show that far from indicating that the Islamic concept of God doesn’t involve perfect goodness, the Qur’ān establishes the proper meaning of perfect goodness by focusing on its constitutive attributes, and thus provides us with a sound conception of it.

Ali[16] has this abstract:

This article explores the various ways in which Muslims, in the past and the present, think about God. The article canvasses a range of views on questions and puzzles pertaining to the essence and attributes of God, the basis of God's Justice, the transcendence of God, and our ability to know and understand God. We encounter a diverse, and at times radically divergent range of views on how best to understand divinity within the tradition of Islam. Given the various conceptions of divinity, available within the tradition, I develop an argument for the view that God is best understood as love. The view that God is love, I contend, emerges directly from the Quran, which is a document that sits at the very heart of the Islamic tradition.

In the Recital itself, Surah 23:62 reads:

We do not lay a burden on anyone beyond his capacity. We have a Book with Us that speaks the truth (about everyone); and they shall in no wise be wronged.

Surah 16:60 reads (c.f. Anselm's maximal-being theology):

To those who disbelieve in the Hereafter belong all evil qualities, whereas to Allah belong the finest attributes, the highest description.

Not to mention that the types of Islam that are so prominent are types in which the hadith (Sayings) are accepted on top of the Recital, so one wonders why we would detain ourselves so much with the words of the Recital alone and not also the Sayings, here (not to mention the writings of later Muslim scholars). I myself don't know what the Sayings say about God's attributes, but I imagine that they include nuances that undermine the OP's claim further.

If one wants definitions of the word "evil" (other than those in the SEP entries pertaining to the problem of evil) one can read through "The Concept of Evil" and "Kinds and Origins of Evil". The is/ought gap is not an undeniable axiom or a theorem of other undeniable axioms, so claiming that subjective definitions of "evil" are the only allowable definitions seems presumptuous. (Note that there is an intuitive inference from, "He is obligated to do A," to, "He ought to do A," so formulating the is/ought gap is not a trivial matter.)

Kristian Berry
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  • The first article you linked literally proves my point since the author acknowledges there is an absence of omnibenevolence as an attribute for God in Islam. Any attribution of this is human speculation and not actually written in the divine texts. So, what error? – thinkingman Aug 17 '23 at 13:45
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    @thinkingman so you don't believe in inference? You can't take a series of premises *A*, *B*, and *C* that are written down using words *a*, *b*, and *c*, and then infer some *D*, written down using a different word *d*? And again, most forms of Islam accept texts in addition to the Recital so claiming that Islam is defined solely with reference to the Recital seems inaccurate, about as inaccurate as claiming that Christianity is based on the Bible alone, or Judaism on the Tanakh. – Kristian Berry Aug 17 '23 at 13:47
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There IS a concept of God's perfection in Islam. As a concept, Allah is essentially similar to Plato's One (except He speaks).

As for evil, it's indeed banal, as Hannah Arendt said. It exists in all of us, as does the opposite inclination to do "good".

Olivier5
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  • This answer itself if a strawman. There is no such concept of Allah being “perfectly moral” or “all loving” in Islam or in the Qur’aan. No one said there is no concept of God’s perfection in general in the religion. – thinkingman Aug 17 '23 at 08:55
  • As for your second paragraph, it then begs the question of what good is. The ontological status for both evil and good is nonexistent – thinkingman Aug 17 '23 at 08:56
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    I do not think that Allah can act immorally in Islamic theology. Please cite your source if you think otherwise. As for the ontology of good and evil, it would be a long and probably failed discussion, as every ontological discussion. If you don't think they exist, fine with me. But perhaps, the next time you want to dismiss the problem of evil with a facile handwave, you might wish to keep the Holocaust in mind. I think it is precisely your kind of relativist thinking that made it possible. – Olivier5 Aug 17 '23 at 09:04
  • Your rebuttal in bringing up the Holocaust has no bearing on whether or not evil, or good, as an ontological matter exists. Nature doesn’t care about what you find good or evil. That much is obvious. – thinkingman Aug 17 '23 at 09:14
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    Why of course Nature doesn't care for ethics. The problem of good and evil is a social, cultural concern within human societies, not a physical reality. Nature doesn't particularly care about art either, but that doesn't make art unimportant. – Olivier5 Aug 17 '23 at 09:36
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    @thinkingman: See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Islam for citations of scriptural passages on the character of Allah, which include two commonly used names for Allah, Al-Rahman, meaning "Most Compassionate" and Al-Rahim, meaning "Most Merciful". Quaranic Literalism dispenses with this kind of questioning, but it exactly rose as a response to them. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bila_Kayf – CriglCragl Aug 17 '23 at 11:26
  • “most merciful” neither “most compassionate” refer to omnibenevolence – thinkingman Aug 17 '23 at 11:37
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    @thinkingman (1) You need to provide [Quranic] sources for the proposition that al-rakhman and al-rakhym fall short of omnibenevolence, in part because the Quran even starts with "*Bismillahi (a)l-rakhmani (a)l-rakhymi*" without qualifying these adjectives at all. So far your rationale implies also that Allah is not the lord of *at least* some worlds despite that the 2nd statement in the Quran calls Allah "*raab al-'alamiina*". (2) Your position precludes you from complaining about something evil done to you unless you provide first a definition of evil. That strictness is impractical. – Iñaki Viggers Aug 17 '23 at 12:18
  • That’s not how it works. Most Merciful quite literally does not mean Infinitely Merciful. The burden is on you to show the latter. If you can’t, admit it – thinkingman Aug 17 '23 at 12:22
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    I don't [see](https://www.sktwelfare.org/media-centre/blog/begin-in-the-name-of-allah/) in *Bismillah al rahman al rahim* any all, supreme, most or any other qualifier. It literally means Allah, the benevolent, the merciful. The adjectives are translation additions – Rushi Aug 17 '23 at 12:53
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    @thinkingman "*Most Merciful quite literally does not mean Infinitely Merciful.*" You are the one insinuating that there is a distinction *in this monotheistic context*. Therefore, it is *your* burden to show that the author(s) of the Quran intended to depict a deity that is/was most merciful but failed or refused to be *even more* merciful. Your expectation of mathematical or exhaustive formulations in the Quran or its counterparts will lead you to disappointments, non-sequiturs, and philosophical paralysis. Another strawman is your unavailing remark that *the benevolent* is not an adjective. – Iñaki Viggers Aug 17 '23 at 13:13
  • Yeah no, it doesn’t work like that. Prove where it states in the Qur’an that he is omnibenevolent. Until then, the argument remains a strawman – thinkingman Aug 17 '23 at 13:15
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    @thinkingman "*Prove where it states in the Qur’an that he is omnibenevolent.*" It is *implied* in the textual prevalence and characterization of the deity. Again, you will not find exhaustive formulations in this type of literature. Your expectation is reductionist enough to preclude any and all development of philosophy. – Iñaki Viggers Aug 17 '23 at 13:40
  • The less said about God, the better, I think. Words only seem to provoke wars. – Scott Rowe Aug 17 '23 at 15:03
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An argument is valid (not a strawman) if it argues against a claim that someone is actually making.

If I'm arguing against you, and you believe that God is made of spaghetti, I should address that conception of God, rather than whatever Christians and Muslims believe God to be.

As for the popularity of the problem of evil: Christianity is the most common religion in the world, and the all-powerful all-loving conception of God is very common within Christianity. So even if the problem of evil is only specific to Christianity, that's still very noteworthy. But given what others are saying, the argument might extend to Islam as well.

Also note that you can't make an argument against all conceptions of a god or gods (even if we just limit it to the beliefs of those who call themselves Christians) at the same time, because all of those are just too different. The argument needs to be specific to some claim that's being made.

NotThatGuy
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It's about the infusion of Greek philosophy, which largely happened through preservation and translation in the Islamic world, during the Christian Dark Ages. See Mu‘tazilitism and the role of al-Kindi and al-Razi, who hailed Greek philosophy as a form of liberation from the shackles of dogma or blind imitation (taqlid).

The god of the Old Testament is vengeful (Angel of Death against Egyptians/Canaanites), spiteful, cruel (Job), and capricious. Christianity has the doctrine of Progressive Revelation to patch discrepancies with the New Testament. The Quaran is stated by Muslims to simply be the directly revealed word of god, and it restates some Old Testament accounts. But, you can do whatever you like about definitions, Muslims still have to account for things like the fall of the Ottoman Empire. See Religious responses to the problem of evil: Islam.

You imply that the theology of Islam is monolithic, with no disputes or controversies. But there are substantially different interpretative schools, hence the differing schools of jurisprudence and other Islamic schools and branches. It's fair to say the Problem of Evil is not an issue for some, like al-Ghazali who wrote The Incoherence of the Philosophers which some have argued was the underpinning of the decline of Islamic science and the end of the Islamic Golden Age. But, you cannot say the Problem of Evil is of no concern for any Islamic scholars. A similar mix occurs in fact among Christian groups, with different currents and concerns.

CriglCragl
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  • *The OT God is vengeful, cruel, capricious* Yes but that's under the assumption 'He' is a [bloke](https://www.italianrenaissance.org/michelangelo-creation-of-adam/). OTOH if a tsunami say wipes out a million lives we dont call it vengeful etc except as metaphor. If we scale that up to events like the comet collision that created the moon we almost by definition cannot witness or even envisage that. My point being personalizing God is ok as a manner of speaking, but ludicrous as literal ontology – Rushi Aug 17 '23 at 12:19
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    To be fair to the OT, at the end of book of Job we have: *Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare! if thou hast understanding* etc. Do we understand this as literal voice in the whirlwind? Or as a poetic way of describing Job's experience of a power vastly greater than he can cognize or express? My point is that Bible etc use personalization as language not fact. PoE is only for *personal* Gods – Rushi Aug 17 '23 at 12:46
  • @Rushi: Without a personal relation you get deism, surely. – CriglCragl Aug 17 '23 at 15:22
  • This whole theism deism dichotomy is still O so Christian. Ok so deism was a valiant attempt at de-SantaClausing Christianity. But do remember almost all the easterns: Taoism,Zen,Buddhism are less (absurdly) theistic than Christianity. Hinduism and Mahayana *seem* to have lots of 'gods'. But theres always a larger wisdom-matrix that subsumes these 'gods' — core concepts like karma,dharma, practices of meditation etc. Far from attaining a personal God they seek to deperson themselves from a fictitious ego individuality. The tentative theism just a temporary concession till the delusion clears – Rushi Aug 17 '23 at 15:52
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    Ramana Maharshi : *If you think of yourself as a person then you need to worship God as your source.* Note that the worship is conditional to an **assumption** of oneself – Rushi Aug 17 '23 at 15:55
  • @Rushi: That's nice & all, but untethered from the practicalities of monotheism. Mysticism is a different jive... – CriglCragl Aug 17 '23 at 18:44
  • Yes mysticism is perhaps one of the core-est divisions between east and west. – Rushi Aug 17 '23 at 18:56
  • @Rushi: No, there have always been mystics in the West. Eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_of_Norwich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Fathers – CriglCragl Aug 17 '23 at 18:58
  • I never said West has no mystics. For easterners Jesus is a mystic, guru, healer. [Leave aside that he's not western!] Alan Watts understood that Christianity by making Jesus an un-emulatable freak has emasculated itself. [His words] The difference is not that there are no mystics but their place in the religious order. In fact you can trace a decline in mystery from Orthodox to Catholic to Protestant to the modern wasteland of secularism/liberalism – Rushi Aug 17 '23 at 19:18
  • @Rushi: Well that must be fun for you. – CriglCragl Aug 17 '23 at 20:18
  • @Rushi "*With much wisdom comes much vexation. He who increases knowledge increases sorrow.*" - Ecclesiastes - Knowing more makes things more depressing. This is why I don't watch the gnus. – Scott Rowe Aug 18 '23 at 10:38
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    One of my favorite lines from the OT @ScottRowe! Without being oppositional [here](https://youtu.be/ZO_7sdbRrVM) a complementary view. BTW the Ecclesiastes line reminds me of a Ramana Mah. line: *A day will come when you will have to unlearn everything you've learned* – Rushi Aug 18 '23 at 15:12