Slur or Tie when they are mixed?

Question

For my understanding, the top notes D and F are slurs, the bottom notes G and C, what are they? Please help! Thanks!

Related: https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/33611/are-there-any-situations-when-one-needs-to-make-a-distinction-between-slurs-and — , Mar 20 '19 at 20:02

score 6 · Answer 1 · edited Mar 20 '19 at 13:13

6

While slurs and ties look pretty well the same, it's straightforward. Connecting two notes of different pitch, they're slurs; connecting two notes of the same pitch, they're ties. So, the bottom notes in each stave are held over, the B and D on top converge to C, and the F at the bottom drops to E.

edited Mar 20 '19 at 13:13

Brian THOMAS

10,171
1
31
65

answered Mar 20 '19 at 10:22

Tim

183,051
16
181
444

1

@replete - seems like keep it simple wasn't too successful! – Tim Mar 20 '19 at 12:11

score 3 · Answer 2 · answered Mar 20 '19 at 11:34

We use those curved lines in music for three different purposes:

Extending duration (ties) - the notes involved must be the same pitch, and only two notes can be joined by a tie. If you want a duration that requires three notes to indicate, you need two ties, one for notes 1-2 and another for notes 2-3.
Indicating an articulation (slur) - for those instruments that can change pitch without a new attack (e.g. a clarinet changing fingering without tonguing) it means using a single attack produced both pitches. For instruments that require a new attack for each note, like the piano, it's an indication that the sounds should be connected as smoothly as possible.
Indicating a phrase ("legato line" or "phrase mark"). This is a little fuzzier... it indicates a smooth connection of the notes, saying they should be played in a legato manner - hence "legato line". It generally extends over a musical phrase - hence the term "phrase mark". Because there are two different interpretations, some composers have created additional symbols (like a dashed line to indicate a phrase that is not legato). Unlike the tie and slur, a single legato line or phrase mark connects more than two notes.

There's another use: to denote text underlay in vocal music, by indicating which notes belong to a given syllable. Many people misinterpret such marks as indicating an articulation. — phoog, Mar 20 '19 at 17:48

score 2 · Answer 3 · edited Mar 20 '19 at 16:42

2

Some people will tell you that slurs connecting the same pitch are actually ties and do not warrant sounding the same note again. That is, of course, wrong. If there is any length-indicating articulatory mark on the first note (like a tenuto bar or a staccato dot), obviously the note has to be sounded differently. But there are also other cases, like the following extract from the Ciaconna of Bach's solo violin Partita 2 (this is in 3/4 time, execution a double stop on both G and D string followed by alternating uses of open A string and fingered D string): (Urtext). Here it is glaringly obvious that the notes connected with a slur and with the same pitch cannot possibly be intended as ties since they are spread across two different strings (and thus have to be sounded twice) and since playing them as ties would be completely out of character for the passage.

Even when playing this on the piano, you would most certainly sound the respective notes twice. So you should always look for all available clues before making the tie/slur decision. It is not as easy as "same pitch -> tie".

edited Mar 20 '19 at 16:42

Community

1

answered Mar 20 '19 at 12:40

There's something wrong there: I count seven up-flag notes and six down-flag. What do violinists here interpret that as? Are the first 2 up-flag notes supposed to be 32nd notes and the publisher goofed? Because if so, the down-up tied pair just indicates playing unison double-stop, and a pianist would re-strike **only** because the upper line re-attacks the note. – Carl Witthoft Mar 20 '19 at 14:55
Ultimately, I fear you are confusing (slurs and ties) with *phrasing marks* . – Carl Witthoft Mar 20 '19 at 14:55
@CarlWitthoft As a violist... this line is completely illegible. I think *maybe* the publisher was trying to avoid stacking notes, but the result is impossible to decipher. – chrylis -cautiouslyoptimistic- Mar 20 '19 at 16:27
Biggest clue here is that it's written in two voices. However badly. – Tim Mar 20 '19 at 16:50
@CarlWitthoft there are twelve 16th notes distributed across two voices (without rests). The first is a double stop, which is why there are seven up flags. In this case the slurs indicate bowing: notes under a single slur are to be played with one stroke of the bow. So there are three downbows and three upbows in the measure. – phoog Mar 20 '19 at 18:10
@chrylis the publisher is following [Bach's own notation](https://www.bach-digital.de/rsc/viewer/BachDigitalSource_derivate_00004049/db_bachp0268_page025.jpg). – phoog Mar 20 '19 at 18:11
@chrylis - incredible. As writ it makes no sense, and for me is unplayable. – Tim Mar 20 '19 at 20:50
@phoog the original manuscript has some sort of indicator mark which I do not agree is a slur/tie to the neighbor notes. I don't know what Bach intended, but by comparing notation on the bottom desk of the manuscript, I suspect there's a lot of very sloppy 16th rests which got misinterpreted by the publisher. – Carl Witthoft Mar 21 '19 at 12:39
@CarlWitthoft Regarding the up flags, I see the seven up flags. I do not understand why you think that makes my comment incorrect. The first double stop is notated as two distinct voices, the upper having an up flag and the lower a down flag. I do not understand "a double-stop does not require, or allow, multiple notes" at all: the very definition of a double stop is that it comprises two notes sounded simultaneously. And the idea that there are 32nds here is also baffling. What 32nds would you suggest they are? – phoog Mar 21 '19 at 13:58
@CarlWitthoft as to "some sort of indicator mark," which are you referring to? I count seven in each measure that could possibly be 8th rests, but that makes no sense musically and the orientation of these marks is different from that of the many 8th rests found on the previous page. They don't have enough flags to be 16th or 32nd rests. The modern edition was given in an answer, not in the question. The question is not about this piece. Also, have you ever listened to this piece? If you do, you'll see what I'm talking about. – phoog Mar 21 '19 at 14:06
The original has some sort of indicator mark which I do not agree is a slur/tie. I suspect there's a lot of very sloppy 16th rests which got misinterpreted by the publisher. The piece is in 3/4 and the measures printed in the original post have only 2 and a half (sort of ) beats as written. My strong suspicion is that the first few notes need some sixteenth rests shoved in there to fill out the first beat. The lower line is 1/16, 1/16th rest, and two tied sixteenth on the final A. The upper line is 1/16 (double stop), sixteenth note, 1/16 rest, and final sixteenth on the matching A. – Carl Witthoft Mar 21 '19 at 14:09
@CarlWitthoft there are no ties. The repeated As are to be played on different strings. The sixteenth notes in odd positions are played on the D string (except for the first one, which is a double stop on the G and D strings). These notes alternate with the open A string. So the violinist is basically playing a melody on the D string and a pedal point on the open A string by alternating between the two. Beaming the voices separately makes it clear that there are two voices played on different strings. The implied 16th rests are omitted because they would add only clutter. – phoog Mar 21 '19 at 14:59
@CarlWitthoft I also missed that there are some 16th rests on the previous page, which very clearly have an extra flag and look nothing like the bowing marks in the measure we're discussing. Look at it this way: count note heads. There are 13, of which the first two are obviously to be played simultaneously. That means there are 12 time units in the measure. The piece is in 3/4, and the time unit of which there are 12 in a 3/4 measure is the 16th note. – phoog Mar 21 '19 at 15:01
@phoog, we're largely in agreement (finally :-) ). I will point out, as a cellist w/ some experience, that there are **never** "implied rests " in properly formatted sheet music, nor are double-stops ever considered to have zero-length in any of the voices. – Carl Witthoft Mar 21 '19 at 15:27

score -2 · Answer 4 · answered Mar 20 '19 at 11:18

-2

Those are double slurs used for joining chords. Ties would not have the same amount of curvature, and if you had different behavior intended for moving and staying notes, you'd use separate stems to indicate separate voicing. Of course, differences are subtle and it depends on who engraved those notes: it is pretty common for people using notation programs to use slurs for everything, so the differences are hard to rely upon. Here is some LilyPond code and output:

\version "2.19.82"

global =
{ \key f \major
  \omit \time 4/4
}

<< { \global <>^"Slurs" <g' b' d''>2^(_( <g' c''>4) r4
     <>^"Ties" <g' b' d''>2^(_~ <g' c''>4) r4
     <>^"Voiced Ties" << { <b' d''>2( c''4) } \\ { g'2~ g'4 } >> r4
     <>^"Full voicing" << { <b' d''>2( c''4) } \\ { g'2. } >> r4 }
     { \global \clef "bass" <c' f'>2^(_( <c' e'>4) r4
       <c' f'>2^(_~ <c' e'>4) r4
       << { f'2( e'4) } \\ { c'2~4 } >> r4
       << { f'2( e'4) } \\ { c'2. } >> r4 }
 >>

answered Mar 20 '19 at 11:18

1

The difference has nothing to do with the amount of curvature. The only thing that matters is the pitch of the notes. You cannot "slur" to the same pitch. – Tom Serb Mar 20 '19 at 11:22
@TomSerb - look carefully, there is a *slight* difference between the curves. However, that's in the printing to join the dots, so to speak. Nothing really to do with slurs and ties really. – Tim Mar 20 '19 at 11:29
@Tim - curvature has nothing to do with whether it is a tie or a slur. The curvature will be different for different durations or interval sizes (because the notes are farther apart horizontally or vertically). The goal of the copyist is to make the music as clear as possible, which requires flexibility in the curvature. – Tom Serb Mar 20 '19 at 11:39
@TomSerb - you're correct, of course. It's just a fact that for the same space between any two dots, a slur will be slightly more curved than a tie. Probably due to the engraving process. But it's hardly a deciding factor. – Tim Mar 20 '19 at 11:44
Thanks guys. I’m only a beginner, I still not really sure after reading your answers. The G on the treble clef and C on the bass clef, are they connected with a tie or a slur? – Shelley Lee Mar 20 '19 at 12:00
When the curved line connects notes that are the same, it's a tie. So the G (treble) and C(bass) **are** tied by ties. No need to re-play those two notes - they're written again because they're held for *three* beats. All others are held for two beats or one beat at the end. – Tim Mar 20 '19 at 12:09
I would expect that an engraver would typically place ties horizontally between the note heads being connected, as distinct from slurs which would extend above or below note heads except when stems get in the way. The "ties" in your example look like slurs to me. – supercat Mar 20 '19 at 17:47

Slur or Tie when they are mixed?

4 Answers4