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I was reading about Brahms, and it was mentioned that he had composed a piece in C# Major.

AFAIK, we generally don't use C# Major in jazz or rock music because the key signature has 7 sharps, so it's easier to use its enharmonic key - Db, which only has 5 flats in its key signature.

Why would a classical composer like Brahms compose something in C#?

Stinkfoot
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    If you modulate clockwise on the circle of fifths it might make more sense to say `F#` => `C#` instead of `F#` to `Db` – Kellen Stuart Jul 25 '17 at 05:09
  • AFAIK, jazz and rock wouldn't use Db *or* C#. Are you asking from a reading point of view? As for most instruments, the fingering for each is the same. – Tim Jul 25 '17 at 07:52
  • Duplicate of https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/43293/why-have-i-never-found-any-music-written-in-the-key-of-c-sharp-major – user42944 Jul 25 '17 at 09:19
  • From a guitarist's point of view, `C#` sometimes makes more sense, because you can simply slap a capo onto the first fret and finger everything the way you would in a `C` key. When doing this, treating the peace as `C#` is a bit easier than `Db`. – Lee White Jul 25 '17 at 10:21
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    @LeeWhite - from a good guitarist's point of view, playing one or the other, the same applies, as a good guitarist won't necessarily be using open chords. Using barred chords, reading either will end up the same. And how did guitarists creep in here... – Tim Jul 25 '17 at 11:38
  • Good or not good -- sometimes a capo is enough to lead to full usage of open chords. But indeed, it very situational, hence why I did not post it as an answer. :-) – Lee White Jul 25 '17 at 13:12
  • @LeeWhite - note that the question is based on Brahms, not guitar music. – Stinkfoot Jul 25 '17 at 14:23
  • @Tim note that the question is based on Brahms, not guitar music. – Stinkfoot Jul 25 '17 at 14:24
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    @Tim-I'm asking from a composer's POV - numerous factors in play. Db seems to be used enough in jazz/RnB (at least I call it Db-those genres tend to use the flat keys) Horace Silver's Doodlin', covered by Ray Charles and countless others is recorded in Db and Ray Charles is does it in Db (it's an instrumental). Charles uses Db quite a bit - his famous Drown in My Own Tears is in Db. Albert King too - Born on a Bad Sign (and others) is in Db. Vocalists obviously tend to use keys that work for their voices - if Db is one of your good singing keys, you use it. – Stinkfoot Jul 25 '17 at 14:38
  • But singing in Db is not far off singing in C#... and I was one who did realise it's not about guitars...! – Tim Jul 25 '17 at 15:53
  • @Tim - Certainly. But as I said, my background is mostly jazz and RnB where they generally use the flat keys - I always think it terms of flat keys. As you intimated, it's because of the horns. _I was one who did realise it's not about guitars_ - well.. not really - It was my question and I knew what I was asking. Take a look at my comment on Neil Meyer's answer - my comment is an hour before yours. LOL - no matter. I clarified the question now ( Didn't think I could one there are answer posted.) – Stinkfoot Jul 25 '17 at 16:05

3 Answers3

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The idea that number of accidentals in a key signature is directly proportional to difficulty of reading is understandable, but it isn't always true. In fact, several very common chromatic harmonies are relatively ugly in D♭ but not too bad in C#. The Neapolitan chord—a major triad with a root on the lowered second scale degree—would be an E♭♭ major chord in the key of D♭ but just a D major chord in C#. All three of the standard augmented sixth chords would have B♭♭ in the key of D♭ but A in the key of C# (although, admittedly they'd all have Fx in C# but just G in D♭).

My point is not that C# is unequivocally easier to read, just that the idea of readability is not quite as simple as just counting the number of sharps or flats in the signature. More importantly, most experienced performers—although they may have once found C# difficult—no longer find reading any key to be that big of a deal at all.

Pat Muchmore
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    I'm thinking that C# is always easier because you just sharpen everything unless there's a natural thrown in there - you don't have to think about it. Not so in D♭ . – Stinkfoot Jul 25 '17 at 06:34
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    @Stinkfoot Possibly, that makes a certain sense to me. Then again, you could argue that sharps on E and B are inherently more confusing. But mostly, I just don't think professional musicians have much trouble with *any* key. – Pat Muchmore Jul 25 '17 at 13:32
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Perhaps to complete a set of 24 pieces in all major and minor keys or perhaps just to be the parallel key of C# minor or the relative key of A major. These are three common reasons.

Another reason would depend on the harmonic pattern throughout the entire piece. If the music modulated on the "flat" side of the original tonic, being written in Db could easily generate 8 or more flats in a key. (Of course, moving to the "sharp" side of the original key would generate lots of extra sharps if started in C# major.) (Flat side and sharp side refer to directions around the cycle of fifths.)

ttw
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    Relative (minor) key of C# is A#m. C#m is relative to E major. – Tim Jul 25 '17 at 07:01
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    Another reason may be that the piece was originally in D major and the singer had a rough night previously. – ttw Jul 26 '17 at 17:43
  • _singer had a rough night previously_ - LOL . Like vocalists who seem to drop their material a few steps every few years... As it is, I think the Brahms composition is instrumental - I'm trying to remember where I saw it. He has a number of solo piano pieces in C#, but I think what I saw was an orchestral piece. – Stinkfoot Jul 26 '17 at 19:22
  • Dropping a vocal by a semitone is maybe not as helpful as dropping it a tone. hardly worth the trouble. – Tim Jul 26 '17 at 22:39
  • Or even a minor third on bad days. There's also the problem of a systematically flat (or sharp) piano. – ttw Jul 26 '17 at 23:08
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    @Stinkfoot the second movement of Brahms's 1st String Quintet starts in C-sharp major, but the key signature is for c-sharp minor. The whole movement toys with the relationship between the two keys - it almost ends in C-sharp major, but he snatches it away at the last few bars and ends up on a strangely unsettling A major chord. The only other Brahms I know in C-sharp one of the waltzes in Op. 39. I know it seems counterintuitive but C-sharp major seems like a much different key to me than D-flat. Hard to explain. –  Jul 26 '17 at 23:53
  • @MarkM - I don't think that was the composition. But looking I found the same material you mentioned. _C-sharp major seems like a much different key to me than D-flat_ I understand that technically/mechanically it is entirely different, but does it sound different to you? On a modern piano that seems a little odd. Could black keys sound a bit different that white keys on a good piano? IDK - I don't really play piano - just mess with a small electric keyboard for learning, etc. – Stinkfoot Jul 27 '17 at 15:31
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    @Stinkfoot - I know it doesn't make a lot of sense. I think of as similar to the McGurk effect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0 Knowing it's C-sharp vs D-flat makes it sound different. –  Jul 27 '17 at 15:37
  • @MarkM _Knowing it's C-sharp vs D-flat makes it sound different_ - Yes, I understand that - a psychological effect. Fact is, I am the same way. I play quite a bit of jazz - Db is a 'cool' key. C#, not really. In jazz/RnB the flat side puts the emphasis (in your mind) on the horns and the pervasive dominant 7th tonality - makes you think of late nights and low lights in smoke filled clubs. :) – Stinkfoot Jul 27 '17 at 18:18
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Sometimes it can be a psychological thing, flat is flat, whereas sharp is spirited, or upbeat. How does one "interpret" a flat key piece or a sharp key piece? Just something to think about, another point of view. Greywolf Rednight (Dan Berendt)

Daniel L. Berendt
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