6

Consider the percussion plays an Offbeat like
1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4

I wonder why it is so hard to interpret it as Onbeat, i.e. counting it like
_ 1 2 3 4 1 2 3

I thought it might be because of the melody (i.e. vocals), which tends to be Onbeat. However the phenomenom also occurs when I play an Offbeat on the piano without any further voices.

So my question: What makes the '1' special if not stress?

pasbi
  • 183
  • 4
  • It's also fun to get a crowd to clap one song on 1 and 3, but the next song on 2 and 4. Once they've been set off... – Tim Apr 20 '17 at 12:01
  • 1
    relevant https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/21977/intended-shift-of-meter-in-certain-songs – Some_Guy Apr 20 '17 at 13:09

3 Answers3

5

Usually in this scenario another part will be playing on-beat, acting as a metronome. Either the chords in a song, perhaps the left hand part of a piano piece, or (as you correctly said), the melody.

Something more prominent will play the '1' so that any off-beat that follows, is correctly perceived as off-beat. So in your example, perhaps the off-beat section you are describing comes after an 'on-beat' section from which the listener will already have the pulse in their head, and so any off-beat notes are easily distinguished.

You said it is still hard for this to occur when there are no other voices. This will most likely be because you are already subconscious of the beat/pulse and so can tell an off-beat from an on-beat when you play it.

Ben Hughes
  • 842
  • 6
  • 13
  • 1
    Does "subconscious" actually mean "conscious"? – anatolyg Apr 20 '17 at 11:33
  • Except, perhaps, in reggae? – Tim Apr 20 '17 at 12:30
  • For example I used to hear the intro to Bastille Pompei with the "wrong" beat, but now I can't hear it the "wrong" way, because I already know the song. – Some_Guy Apr 20 '17 at 13:10
  • @Tim I always wonder how music that emphasises the 2 and 4 can so clearly tell you where the downbeat is. Rhythm is something I tend be a lot less introspective and "theoretical" about than I am about melody or harmony, but off the top of my head I think maybe we take the bass to indicate strong beats and the treble as weak beats for some reason? So if you play a bass downbeat, you can play offbeat chords and it'll "ground" you. Almost like a rhythmic "tonic". Sorry for the crap use of terminology, here's what I mean. The bass note gives it all context http://onlinesequencer.net/460036 – Some_Guy Apr 20 '17 at 13:38
  • 1
    @Some_Guy - Quite a few times, when playing bass and having an empathetic drummer, I'll swap the beats, and play on 2 and 4 instead of 1 and 3 (in simple stuff). Given that the rest of the band is thinking, it is quite fun. And with reggae type numbers, it's almost obligatory... – Tim Apr 20 '17 at 13:45
  • @anatolyg yes, I was trying to say that it's in your subconcious – Ben Hughes Apr 20 '17 at 14:07
  • @Tim yes except perhaps in reggae although I am not particularly knowledgable in this genre so I do not know for sure. – Ben Hughes Apr 20 '17 at 14:08
  • I defy anyone to listen to [Kings Of Leon, Charmer -YT link](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCd1vXsvkV4) [you don't have to like it, it's not one of their 'prettiest' songs]... but try a) to find the one & b) not to be thrown again every time there's a "downbeat crash" into each section. It's a trick they used to use a lot, but by heck it can be effective... in making you have to learn it & count it :/ – Tetsujin Apr 20 '17 at 19:02
  • @Tetsujin haha yes I think the reason it's hard to track is that the snare is hit on 2 and 4. The snare in this song is very driving and influences the rest of the instruments. – Ben Hughes Apr 20 '17 at 19:33
  • Ahaah!!! Did you fall for it? [as I do, nearly every time]. The snare is **on**-beat, 1 & 3. I still bet the crash will throw you, even though you now know. ;) The opening bass riff 'tells the truth' & starts right on the one... everything after is 'a lie'. – Tetsujin Apr 20 '17 at 19:40
  • @Tetsujin noooo! I knew the opening bass riff was the 'truth'! So I was trying to count from there but must have got mixed up somewhere! – Ben Hughes Apr 20 '17 at 19:45
  • You got mixed up at "the crash" which everything you know about 'pop music' tells you **is the one**.... not the darn four ;) – Tetsujin Apr 20 '17 at 19:47
  • Let us [continue this discussion in chat](http://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/57427/discussion-between-ben-hughes-and-tetsujin). – Ben Hughes Apr 20 '17 at 19:49
3

This depends on the context. In some styles (salsa dance music is one example), it's hard to catch the "2" beat in many pieces. Various styles distinguish breaking on 1 or on 2, but I have watched (supposed) experts miss as often as not. I do not do much better.

I have over the years noticed many dancers miss the down beat in ballroom (even waltz). Sometimes the arrangements lack a strong rhythmic feel.

However, as pointed out above, there is usually some other part of the music that carries the implication of the downbeat. Often this is the bassline, sometimes is the melody, and sometimes comes from other percussion instruments. Note that in the salsa I mentioned, the bass from beat 4 is tied to the bass on beat 1 of the next measure (with the second measure's harmony) and this is followed by the bass on the second part of beat 2, so there's no strong "2" beat for the dancers from the rhythm section.

jdjazz
  • 11,123
  • 2
  • 32
  • 78
ttw
  • 24,207
  • 1
  • 31
  • 76
0

I think the listener will jump on the first rhythmic cue that suggests the beat. In most songs, this is totally unambiguous as there is a plain and known beat established right from the beginning.

However, shifting the beat is a nice device, as discussed here (linked by Some_Guy in a comment): Intended shift of meter in certain songs? I also believe different listeners may react differently to it.

To play with it, you can listen to a metronome and force your brain to interpret the clicks as off-beats. It is possible, although your brain might work against it because it interprets the first click as an on-beat and then just keeps the pulse going. I know some drummers who use off-beat metronome to work on their timing precision.

Compare it to the spinning dancer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinning_Dancer You may see her rotate in either direction, depending on the model you manage to establish in your brain. And you may switch at any time.

Theo Tiger
  • 150
  • 3