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If I'm playing a song in Dorian D would I say that the song is in the key of C? Or is the song in the key of D, cause that my true tonic?

I guess the question can be boiled down to, is the tonic the same as the key?

So if Dorian D is in the Key of D, would I say, this song is in the Key of D in Dorian? Or just, this song is in the Key of D(if I say this i suspect they will assume I'm saying major)?

JohnandLyn Henry
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  • I've just been looking at the same issue. The Dorian tune I'm looking at is written in key of Dm, which seems strange because all the Bb's are turned into B naturals. So why bother with a Bb in the key signature at all, just have the same key signature as as C major. But as explained above that's just not the way it's done. – Gerry Mar 13 '20 at 08:20

2 Answers2

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You'd say it's in D Dorian, rather than Dorian D.Like you say C major rather than major C. But be careful, as there are two ways to describe it. The Dorian of D is different from D Dorian. The former has 2 sharps, because it's the mode of D that centres around E, whereas the latter uses C major notes, but is centred around D. I've heard both used, and it can get confusing at a jam session, believe me!

Also, I think you'd write the key signature of the parent key, otherwise if you write a D key sig. with its two sharps, to show a kind of D-ness, there'll be a lot of accidentals on the way! You could write it out with a D minor key sig., as it's a minor mode, and then you'd only have the B/Bb to change.

Tim
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  • I don't want to cause a little bit of conflict. However, I'm already confused so I need to address it. Your answer and Dom's answer seem to say contrary things. Or am I just really really confused? (BTW re: D Dorian vs Dorian D, thanks, that makes sense, I'll be careful with that) – JohnandLyn Henry Jul 15 '16 at 16:43
  • Where is the conflict? Dom knows his stuff so what have he and I said that are not the same? – Tim Jul 15 '16 at 16:49
  • Dom said the key would be written in D, you are saying the key would be written in C major – JohnandLyn Henry Jul 15 '16 at 16:51
  • @JohnandLynHenry I'm saying you _could_ write it in C, but it's very rare to see it that way. Most of the time you'll use D minor instead. – Dom Jul 15 '16 at 17:00
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First off, the key of D is ambiguous. A key represents a tonal center and expected harmony with the the normal two being major and minor. Just saying key of D you aren't specifying if it is major or minor.

Again modes are not tonal and the idea of a key is so not everything translates 100% between tonal and modal ideas. You could say the key is D Dorian which has the same key signature as C major and A minor, but rarely is that ever done in print. The more natural route especially in notation is to say if it's a major mode say it's in D major and use that key signature or if it's a minor mode to say it's in D minor and use that key signature. This seems counter intuitive, but it stresses the tonic and gives a pretty close harmony that is typically just off by one accidental in the key signature. So for D Dorian you would notate the key signature as D minor, but you would write in naturals for all of your B notes to make them natural.

A good example of this in the wild is Led Zepplin's Good Times Bad Times which is almost always written with a key signature of E major, but it's pretty obvious that it is in E Mixolydian with it constantly during the verse going from E to D back to E.

Dom
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    that is really not intuitive. – JohnandLyn Henry Jul 15 '16 at 16:17
  • @JohnandLynHenry most people don't think in mode, but in major or minor. As such it makes sense to use a major or minor key signature to denote it. – Dom Jul 15 '16 at 16:20
  • that is really not intuitive. It doesn't seem like that could be correct, cause that would mean, if i wrote something in D Locrian it would have that sound, but the key would be D Major. This means that the scale Locrian is derived from, E flat would be the true major scale from which the song is written, but the notation would use D major. The issue with this, is they are very very different(you'd have accidents everywhere) – JohnandLyn Henry Jul 15 '16 at 16:27
  • If people don't think in modes, then in the example you gave for Zepplin, it would make more sense that the song be notated in the key of A major – JohnandLyn Henry Jul 15 '16 at 16:29
  • No, because the tonic is E Good Times Bad Times so if the key signature is A major that can confuse basic readers. Locrian is not a major mode and is diminished so is an oddball and most likely would not use the term key when talking about it. You only do what I said if it's a major or minor mode. When you say key of D Dorian you are trying to fit a modal idea into a tonal idea which doesn't make sense most of the time hence why talking about it in terms of major and minor is more natural to most. – Dom Jul 15 '16 at 16:31
  • sorry, just one more question on this. So if I wrote in D Dorian then it will be written as D minor cause it's a minor chord. So when this would be written it would be in the key of D minor. So the reader wouldn't expect to see C major chord or G major chord, but there is a good change one or both will be in the song. So it would be up to the reader to understand modes are being used. It seems like a serious shortfall in notation – JohnandLyn Henry Jul 15 '16 at 16:39
  • @JohnandLynHenry again, modes are not tonal. A key signature is not a strict set of notes there are notes used outside the key signature all the time. Key signatures were designed with tonal ideas in mind so if you tried to use the key of C major to write D dorian, most people will default to thinking C or A is the tonic rather than D. If you use D minor and put naturals for the B, people will know the tonic is D and still understand the ideas of the harmony used. It won't really matter that you never use Bb and use B instead as there are other ideas that go along with the key signature. – Dom Jul 15 '16 at 16:45
  • Thanks Dom, I can see what you meant yesterday when you said the tonic doesn't translate in modes – JohnandLyn Henry Jul 15 '16 at 18:05