0

When one comes up with a riff or phrase of music out of "context"(an inspired thing or whatever), how can one find the best meter to set the riff too... or the natural meter the riff is in? (Mainly for notation)

Obviously there are certain things one generally goes by such as harmonic changes, accents, etc and usually counting 1 & 2 & or 1 pul let 2 pul let, etc will find the correct meter(more or less).

But what happens when this isn't the case or it is difficult for other reasons? or one just doesn't have the gift to visualize it instantaneously or doesn't want to go with "trial and error".

Is there certain fundamental rules that pretty much 99.9% of all melodies/riffs/phrases have in relation to their "natural" meter?

We are generally told that agogic accents coincide with metrical accents, etc. But this "rule" only occurs about 50% of the time, say. (definitely not a "law", at least).

Of course, most melodies are easy. Assume this is hard(difficult syncopation that may allow multiple interpretations if one is "fuzzy" on how to proceed).

e.g., if there was a method to go about, it would be nice because it would at least have another way to help me figure this stuff out. I'm trying to avoid trial and error, as some complex melodies with multiple meter changes or heavily "syncopated" could be hard to resolve. Obviously I'm talking about stuff that probably isn't in 4/4 as that is generally the easiest to figure out.

Tempo also is an issue, because obviously one can notate the same melody at double or half the speed and it will still "fit" more or less.

I'm trying to find the best way to notate ideas I have and sometimes I create melodies in odd times or have weird syncopation that make me feel they are in a different meter than they are. I also sometimes find certain melodies easier to play along with a click that is double speed than what they would be notated at.

[I have a guess that when one learns to read sheet music well, most of these problems become moot as you can just "visualize" the melody and your mind figures out all the details... basically from lots of experience with many melodies. Is this sound logic?]

[Edit]

http://www.filedropper.com/ex1

Here is an example file of a little idea I made up for an example(nothing special). I'm not sure what overall meter it is, I'm sure it's 4/4 as there is a steady pulse most of the time but there are a few dropped beats and added beats here and there. I feel the "temp" to be around 35 bpm but I'm sure its about 70 since I tend to feel things at "half" the speed they usually are.

Of course I could go through and count everything and figure out what stuff is off, but then I'll have some trouble if I've dropped half a beat somewhere, specially if I get the down beat "wrong".

This example is mainly directed at Johannes, as the example was created from scratch without any clue of what meter I am playing in. I mainly just see it as a "pulse train"(equal beats). I'm not thinking about meter or anything like that.

Thanks.

  • I don't understand how you can come up with a riff and not _feel_ the underlying beat or time. How do you go about creating the riff/melody? How do you know you're playing it the same way every time while making it up? If you know its "complex" and "syncopated", by definition it would already have to have a meter, no? I guess I don't understand the question... – Johannes Dec 20 '15 at 23:57
  • @Johannes It's the same way that thousands, if not millions of "musicians" create stuff without knowing the "theory" behind it. It is the difference between an "educated" musician(one who learned how to understand what they were hearing and those who went off of "feel" and had no idea what they were doing, more or less). –  Dec 21 '15 at 00:40
  • Basically, if I play to a pulse(a click or my own "feeling"), I can make up whatever I want and I can play learned melodies. I didn't learn 4/4 before I learned to create. Hence the creating part is more natural for me(and many "uneducated" musicians I think) and then I have to go back and figure out what I did... or I learn the melody that someone else plays and then try to figure out what they are doing. –  Dec 21 '15 at 00:42
  • I've been playing quite a long time off of "memorization" and "feel". I didn't grow up playing stuff that I knew was in 4/4 because I didn't learn to read sheet music and I'm just now learning. I play something the exact same way basic on feel, not because I read a series of instructions off sheet music that told me. –  Dec 21 '15 at 00:44
  • Also, there is ambiguity in meter. Is it 6/8 or 2/4? They are the same, more or less, depending if one uses triplets as the common subdivision or duplets. But we know some musicians will take a melody that was created in one meter and impose a different meter on it. –  Dec 21 '15 at 00:45
  • Of course, keep in mind, I am in no way saying I am right or feel things properly or whatever. Maybe if you expand on your thought process why you can't understand why I could come up with a melody without knowing the meter first, then I could either teach you something or you could teach me something. (either way, at least one of us would benefit!) –  Dec 21 '15 at 00:47
  • For example, say you hear a melody someone is playing... do you automatically recognize without hesitation that it was in 11/8 + 3/4 + 9/8? I don't. but I can generally copy the melody and play it without too much trouble. But when I have to go notate it, I'll be somewhat at a loss. I think it has much to do with not learning to read sheet music early on. Obviously 99.9% of music is in 4/4 so when I play something to a 4 beat click(accent on the 1st) then the melody will naturally fit into the metrical structure. But this is not always the case. –  Dec 21 '15 at 00:53
  • Again, if you feel I'm misunderstanding something then please pursue. I'm wanting to get better... so any help is appreciated. Maybe I will record something quick so you can see. I will make it difficult, for me, at least... and then you could tell me it is easy and *why*, then I might learn. –  Dec 21 '15 at 00:54
  • This feel like a duplicate of this: http://music.stackexchange.com/questions/15102/how-to-tell-the-time-signature-of-a-song-by-listening – Dom Dec 21 '15 at 03:00
  • @AbstractDissonance, I've listened to you example and agree with Tekkerue that it seems to be in 4/4 with a few half measures in places. But my point is, _you_ are the composer, _you_ are the one who determines the meter/time. You don't even have to decide! (Joni Mitchell comes to mind...) Sure, if your goal is to notate your ideas, you'd have to put down a time signature but the only way to become fluent is to do it (by trial and error!) again and again. Also, I feel the purpose of the time signature is to serve the music, not the other way around. – Johannes Dec 21 '15 at 12:09
  • @Johannes. Well, I would like to agree with you, but so much music is in 4/4 that if I want to play with others and play their music, I have to have a solid grasp of 4/4. I will give you an example of the problem. Take stairway to heaven. I've learned the song well and can pretty much play it through on acoustic guitar. But in the interlude sections Am7 --- Dsus4 D --- Am7 --- E/D D C/D D thing, I always "rush" the second Am7. Basically the Dsus4 is pushed an 8th... and I end up pushing the Am7's by an 8th. Because I don't 'think' in terms of meter I tend to base stuff off previous things. –  Dec 21 '15 at 18:50
  • That is, my brain seems to readjust immediately and turns syncopation into non-sycopations. I've noticed this on a lot of stuff since I've started reading music. I feel if I had a solid understanding of meter then things like this won't happen. It also happens on long held out notes. I usually just don't know how long to hold them out and sort of "guess". I know it's because I don't tap or count, because when I do... I can usually get it. It still doesn't feel natural to me. (many times I feel things should be held out longer and they are not... basically to allow stuff to breath) –  Dec 21 '15 at 18:53
  • In any case, I'm sure it's just a matter of experience. The more I do it(trial and error if necessary), the more natural it will be. This is already happening, so I guess it works ;) I do realize, to some extend, that one can notate anything in any meter(and even feel any piece of music in any meter), but there seems to be more natural meters for certain things. Obviously a series of chords played evenly with 4 pulses felt would be notated weird in 7/8 and all the accents would be rotating. (sort of like playing a waltz to a metronome in 4/4 = 1 . . 4 . . 3 . . 2 . . 1 ..) –  Dec 21 '15 at 18:55

1 Answers1

1

The best method is really to tap it out (with your feet if you're playing the instrument) and then count the number of beats. By subdividing your tapping you should eventually be able to make your feet line up with the beginning of the riff (or the "1" beat).

For example, take this random obscure rhythm (I made it weird to demonstrate the method):

X   XX X X X*     (* = the pattern repeats again)

First try tapping quarter notes to it:

X   XX X X X*
1   2   3   1

Ok, the 1 didn't line up at the end, so it's not 3/4. Try 8th notes now:

X   XX X X X*
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Nope, still not lining up with the 1, so it's not 7/8 either. Try 16th notes now:

    X   XX X X X*
    123456789011

There it is! So the note value is 16th notes and we counted 11 of them before getting back to the "1" beat, so the meter would be 11/16.

It is also entirely possible if you are just creating music on the fly without regard for time or meter that you could create riffs that do not fit precisely into any particular meter. If this is the case, then you may have to nudge some notes/rests in order to make it conform to a specific meter.

My rhythm example could also be tweaked to make it fit into a more common meter by nudging the last note out by one 16th note:

X   XX X X X*
X   XX X X  X*
1   2   3   1

Now it fits better into 3/4 after that slight tweak, but if you liked it better the original way then you could keep it in 11/16. Here it's up to you to decide which meter best describes the overall feel you're going for.

[EDIT] I saw your edit adding the audio example after posting. The entire thing could easily be made to fit entirely in 4/4. However the way you played it, there are a couple times you cut it short to 2/4 (or you could say the measure goes longer to 6/4, however you want to phrase it), which is totally fine to leave it like that or you could tweak those parts to make them standard 4/4. There is a little bit of "rushing" in places, but this can happen even when playing a song that is strictly 4/4. And really, all I did to figure it out is tap it out and count. The pulse is constant, but the count was altered slightly and didn't line up with 4/4.

Dom
  • 47,095
  • 22
  • 150
  • 281
Tekkerue
  • 2,568
  • 10
  • 11
  • Yes, to me, this is called "trial and error". It works well when you the melody is actually in such easy time signatures. When it's not it seems like it would be quite difficult. Specially if the timing isn't prefect. I'm making an assumption that most musicians can feel these meters and most professional musicians can listen to a piece of music and just "know" it's in 4/4 or not... and when it changes, they know what it changes to. –  Dec 21 '15 at 02:33
  • For example, I added a clip I "composed on the fly" a few minutes ago. I could notate this out but it would probably take a few hours and require some software to loop parts so I can make sure it get it right. I "feel" that it is not in straight 4/4 all the way through, I sort of "feel" the places it's off in some cases(at least off when one gains half a beat or loses half a beat). Maybe I'm just not familiar enough with different meters to really get it or I need to just practice a lot until it becomes second nature... –  Dec 21 '15 at 02:33
  • The main reason for asking the question, besides trying to strengthen my weakness, is that I have a melody from a friend that I'm trying to notate(I can't share because it's his and I haven't got permission). When I enter the melody in sibelius it doesn't sound right and I can't figure out why(it's slightly off in timing in some way). It's got some type of weirdness to it that is throwing me off. It's in 4/4 but it has some syncopation that, to me, make it feel a bit strange(it's something like aba in 3 bars with the ab in 7/4 and the last a in 5/4). I guess I'll have to do trial and error ;/ –  Dec 21 '15 at 02:41
  • 1
    I updated my post to comment on the audio you added. You are correct that it is nearly entirely 4/4, just a couple spots where a measure was cut in half. As far as getting the starting beat lined up, where do you hear the "1" beat in the song you uploaded? Do you have trouble getting that one or is that song ok? And to help you feel the meter you're playing in there is no better way to work on this than to play to a metronome or a drum track. This will help you feel the pulse and you will know immediately when you get out of sync from it. – Tekkerue Dec 21 '15 at 03:09
  • Yeah, amazing I started to play the riff my friend had over and over to a metronome. I noticed that I was not playing correctly. I would try to make certain notes land on the beat when they were syncopated. basically I was trying to play it faster than it was suppose to. If I rushed a note too much I would end up feeling it, I guess, in a different spot and it would cause me to hear things off or different. Quite amazing actually! Once I started playing in time with it, it was very easy and natural feeling. There were syncopations but I didn't let them throw me off. –  Dec 21 '15 at 04:43
  • I realized that I had to play it slower than I was trying, probably by about 30%. Once I got in time, I tried playing it starting on every beat and the &'s of all the beats. It worked pretty well, but I'm not sure which is best yet. In the piece I did, I hear(after not listening to it for a few hours), the "beat" is on the high notes at the start. When I played it, I played it feeling them on the &'s with the bass like hit's being the 1's. To me it kinda has this tick tock feel between the low knocks on the guitar and the high notes. Either one kinda work as a "frame" of reference for me. –  Dec 21 '15 at 04:47
  • I think I'm finally starting to get a feel for it though. I need to spend a lot of time with the metronome and pay attention to the beats. I mainly used it to just try to "synch" to before(playing scales and what not)... but never to get a grip on meter(well, I've tried at times but never had it really make sense like it has. I guess I'm usually trying to play things perfectly and never relaxed enough to just "ride" the tempo, so to speak(it feels much easier to play in time with the metronome than fight every beat)). I appreciate your help! So, what do you feel the 1 to be in the piece? –  Dec 21 '15 at 04:49
  • I should probably say why I feel the high as the 1... Because my logic might be wrong and is what's stopping me from feeling it properly. To me, the first 3 notes feel like a pickup(I didn't play the bass note on the intro like I do later on). The notes are G# A B with the b being held out more. But I'm not sure if the drum hit on the guitar is the 1 because usually when I play like that it's kinda like a kick snare thing(rock drum groove). (but I hear it as snare kick in this case) –  Dec 21 '15 at 05:00
  • So, this melody I was working out for a friend, I finally got it! I was thinking some stuff was triplets but they were just straight 16th's, but his accents are 16th notes off the beat(like on the 2& and 3&)... but I felt them as being on the beat(since I didn't know where to start). so I tried to make his first note on the beat(which is is), then those syncopation's on the beat too. The notes in between had to be triplets to fit, yet it didn't sound right. I guess I have a huge issue with confusing syncopation's for for non-syncopations ;/ –  Dec 21 '15 at 20:49
  • Sorry for the late reply, I was going to take another listen to the song you uploaded again but the song is not up anymore. However, I’m pretty sure the rhythmic “drum” hit were on 2 and 4. I don’t remember how much of a pickup there was, but you are right the start of the song was not the “1” there was a pickup into it. If you can feel the rhythmic hits as 2 and 4 (hear it as a snare hit in your head) that will help you get the 1 beat. When playing you can also alternate tapping your feet by tapping the right foot on 1 and 3 and the left foot on 2 and 4. – Tekkerue Jan 02 '16 at 07:42
  • Also practicing with a metronome that can accent the "1" beat, or a drum sequencer where you can put a crash cymbal on the 1 beat, or even a speaking metronome which counts the beats "one, two, three, four", etc. anything to emphasize the 1 beat will help you internalize where the 1 beat is. With enough practice you'll be able to feel it without the 1 beat being emphasized, but this can be a great help when first learning how to feel it. And congrats on getting your friend's rhythm down. :) – Tekkerue Jan 02 '16 at 07:52