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I was watching along with an entertaining video of Liszt's solo piano transcription of Beethoven's 9th symphony. This thing is over an hour long with numerous technical feats and is surely something only an incredibly skilled pianist would even dare to try out.

Which is why it kind of confused me to see fingering markings, not just in a few parts but all over the place.

Sample 1

Sample 2

Sample 3

I wonder why you would add extensive fingering notations to a piece that's clearly only for the very best of pianists, who would presumably no longer need them.

My theories:

  • Liszt just loved being explicit about fingerings, just like he loved adding ossia's.
  • This piece is so long that it is meant to be sight-read for the most part, and finger markings speed that process up.
  • Following the specified fingerings does result in a slight difference in pronunciation of each note compared to alternate fingerings that one might choose, and this difference is something Liszt wanted to specify.

I wonder which of these theories is right, if any, and/or if there's other benefit to adding finger markings to virtuosic piano pieces.

KeizerHarm
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  • I would exclude theory 2: there is not sufficient time to read the fingerings in addition to the notes. – guidot Nov 30 '20 at 12:24
  • @guidot I suspected the same, but with me not being a sight reader I was prepared to be surprised. – KeizerHarm Nov 30 '20 at 12:34
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    I'd put some weight into theory 3: I've often had to devise new, unintuitive fingerings for my transcriptions to improve legato or playability at full speed. – Dekkadeci Nov 30 '20 at 16:35
  • You do realize that fingering is a personal choice? Everyone has different hands with different capabilities there is absolutely ZERO logic to fingerings across the board. They are a starting point. In general I find fingerings to be pretty useless. A person should be developing their own ability to perform music without having to rely on them, they just get in the way and can be a hindrance to those that do not fit the "norm". In some cases fingerings are flat out wrong for some people and do more harm than good. Only rarely have I run across a fingering that was better than what I chose nat. – Stretto Nov 30 '20 at 20:22
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    @Stretto why are you attacking me for a choice made by either Liszt himself or the 1922 publisher, of which I was asking the purpose? – KeizerHarm Nov 30 '20 at 21:12
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    @Stretto Not clear what your point is. The question isn't whether to follow the fingerings, just why Liszt would have chosen to include them. – Aaron Nov 30 '20 at 22:15
  • @KeizerHarm I'm not attacking you. I'm telling you that fingerings are very subjective. That answers your question. If they are subjective then it doesn't matter why they exist. Suppose any of your answers were true, so? What is the point? If they are subjective then it doesn't matter because there is no absolute logic of why. The answer of why they added them is because someone decided they wanted to and you'll never get any answer of why unless you ask that person, no one else and even then it's just their preference to do so. You wanting someone to logically deduce an answer that is illogic – Stretto Nov 30 '20 at 23:42
  • The only way your answer could be answered in any *meaningful* way if is someone exactly knew the answer, such as who did it wrote it down somewhere and told someone and so on, but good luck on that. I'm just trying to get you to understand that. The chances of anyone on the internet being able to answer such a question is the same as trying to get an answer for *why* the sky is blue. Sure you can get in to all the physics of it, of electronic orbitals, quantum mechanics, but that isn't *why*, that is *how*. Your question is an infinite regress, it has no real answer. – Stretto Nov 30 '20 at 23:45
  • @Aaron Which I answered "Personal preference". HE CHOSE TO PUT THEM THERE. It is a preference just like some people choose to put ketchup on their pizza. If he didn't do it someone might ask 'Why didn't Lizst write out all the fingerings". Hell, we don't even know if he did it or not. These questions cannot truly be answered unless Lizst, and or the editors were here to answer for what they did. They are not. Unless they wrote down the answers somewhere then they simply cannot be answered in any meaningful way. You can't prove anyone's answers will be correct then. – Stretto Nov 30 '20 at 23:47
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    @Stretto Actually, we do know that Liszt wrote them, and we have a very good idea why. P.S. Your caps lock key is stuck. – Aaron Nov 30 '20 at 23:58
  • @Aaron Ok, if we do know that for sure, 100% and it wasn't some editor, then so? Doesn't change anything. Unless Liszt wrote down why then it is like everything else that will be lost to time. Just facts of life. AND NO MY CAPS WORKS FINE! See? My point was that I wasn't talking about the specific fingering choices as preference but his choice of writing them down as a preference. Bach could have wrote down his *preferred* fingerings, he didn't, should we ask the same question? What about every other dead composer? When do we get tired of it and just get on with the music? – Stretto Dec 01 '20 at 00:04
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    @Stretto You're still having caps lock issues. Once fixed, let me know, and I'd be happy to have a conversation about why asking questions about dead composers is enlightening. – Aaron Dec 01 '20 at 00:27
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    @Stretto umm, netiquette agrees that CAPITAL SENTENCES are like shouting and is considered rude. If you want to emphasize something, just use *italic* or **bold** instead. – Andrew T. Dec 01 '20 at 06:34

4 Answers4

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In the interest of keeping this post focused, I'll just address the specific question of...

Why did Liszt put fingerings in his transcription of Beethoven's Ninth?

First, it's important to establish whether the fingerings are given by Liszt, which they are. Here is the passage given in OP "sample 1" from the Neue Liszt-Ausgabe edition (1993) (mvmt 4, mm. 462ff).

Beethoven-Liszt Symph. 9, mvmt 4, mm. 462ff

The Neue Liszt-Ausgabe is a scholarly edition intended especially for musicologists studying Liszt's compositional process and style. The edition is very strict in adhering to Liszt's original markings. In particular, this quotation from the "General Preface" to the series:

In the pieces, Liszt's original fingering is given everywhere.1

And in the Preface to Supplement 11, which contains symphonies 5-7, Liszt himself is quoted from a letter to the transcriptions' publisher:

Should you set to engraving the manuscript of the two Symphonies I would ask you to recommend to the engraver that they are engraved with plenty of room because of the fingerings I must add and also because of the complexity of the passages. (italics original; boldface mine)

As to why Liszt would have included them, the Preface begins:

Basically two motives impelled Ferenc Liszt to transcribe for solo piano the symphonies of Ludwig van Beethoven (1770 - 1827): one was the profound respect he felt [for Beethoven].... The second motive derived from the first: he wanted to popularize these masterpieces everywhere. (p. XV; emphasis mine)

A footnote to the above passage includes:

In the 1820s and 1830s few people knew and understood Beethoven's works.

It is important to bear in mind also that Liszt was pioneering new piano techniques. What might be standard fare for today's most advanced pianists would have been largely unknown in Liszt's time. That, combined with Liszt's desire to see his transcriptions used broadly, more than suggests the fingering were to help any and all performers with difficult passages.

Aaron
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    It should be noted that Liszt had unusually large hands (comfortably capable of a 13th spread), so the fingerings he wrote might not be technically feasible for someone with a more average spread. I'm sure many performers who have played these pieces (myself included, though not very well in this case) have had to make alterations to adjust for that. – Darrel Hoffman Nov 30 '20 at 22:06
  • That's the perfect answer, thank you! I will edit the question title to be more specific about this Liszt piece, for although I had considered ideas that apply to any virtuosic piece, the Beethoven transcription was the origin of the question and as it turns out the reason was quite personal to the man himself. – KeizerHarm Dec 01 '20 at 01:47
  • @KeizerHarm Nice edit. +1. IMO, the more general question would make a great subject for the chat room. – Aaron Dec 01 '20 at 02:19
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    His transcriptions were *so* successful at popularizing masterpieces that, by the time orchestral scores of Wagner arrived in the New World, audiences raised on the father-in-law's transcriptions (which took some liberties) thought that the orchestral versions had mistakes. – Camille Goudeseune Dec 01 '20 at 21:29
  • @CamilleGoudeseune That's a great anecdote! Can you tell me where I could read more? – Aaron Dec 01 '20 at 21:43
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    :-) It may be from the preface to Dover's reprint of the Wagner transcriptions. Another: the symphony transcriptions were so popular that the publisher begged Liszt to also do Beethoven's string quartets. Liszt tried, and eventually replied in all seriousness that it was impossible. (Which at our remove is easier to understand.) – Camille Goudeseune Dec 02 '20 at 01:16
  • @CamilleGoudeseune Too good. If I can track that down, I'll add it to the answer. Many thanks. :-) – Aaron Dec 02 '20 at 01:28
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    It's also worth noting that by specifying the fingering, Liszt is giving some hints about how he wants the piece to be phrased. For example, the second passage in the OP's question (343243-343243) could also reasonably be fingered 343243-*2*43243, which would likely represent a subtly different interpretation. – avid Dec 03 '20 at 01:20
  • @avid That's a great point. I actually thought the 3 at the beginning of the second grouping was an error. But by using 3-3, it forces a break in the phrasing. It brings up a very interesting question, because pedal is also indicated. When I have a minute I'm going to check out what's going on in the original Beethoven score. – Aaron Dec 03 '20 at 01:45
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Many times fingerings are a choice of the publisher, not the composer or arranger. Fingerings are quite common in student editions and quite rare in urtexts, although for piano there are manuscripts with fingerings for either special effects or passages seen as particularly difficult by the composer or which the composer wishes to “micromanage”.

For the edition and piece in question, I find it hard to imagine an advanced pianist who doesn’t have a well developed technique for octaves, which may or may not involve alternating the fourth and fifth fingers. So I’m personally convinced that the fingering you’re seeing was added by the publisher or editor for educational purposes.

It could have been added by Liszt, perhaps for his own use and on publication his fingerings were deemed valuable. Personally I would have written a few 5s and 4s here and there and understood that I was going to follow that same finger pattern. This amount of fingering makes the page too busy IMHO and that reinforces my belief that the publisher added them.

One way to find out is to search for different editions, particularly earlier ones.

Todd Wilcox
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  • Fair point; the only version I can find online is from 1922, with the fingering in place. That of course that doesn't say whether Liszt himself wrote them in. Why would a publisher add fingerings though? Educative purposes seem unlikely when the piece itself is so complex. – KeizerHarm Nov 30 '20 at 14:16
  • @KeizerHarm - Possibly for consistency purposes. Wouldn't publishers like to boast that *all* their piano scores contain clear, lucid fingerings? – Dekkadeci Nov 30 '20 at 14:43
  • @KeizerHarm I agree it seems less likely that this piece would be an educational assignment for any students who are not at a level of developing their own fingerings. I don’t have any good theories. – Todd Wilcox Nov 30 '20 at 14:44
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    @ToddWilcox Two suggested edits: 1) rather than "fingerings are ... rare in urtexts", I suggest, "publisher/editor added fingerings are rare in urtexts" -- composer fingerings would, of course, be included;; 2) "...well developed technique for octaves", the passage I think you're referring to is sixths, so "octaves" -> "sixths". – Aaron Dec 01 '20 at 04:50
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The most difficult piano etudes are published in editions with fingers. Why wouldn't this transcription be published in a similar way?

In both cases I think the point is to give fingerings for those who are working to attain a new skill level.

@ToddWilcox makes an important point about fingerings being (I think usually) the work of the editor.

Michael Curtis
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  • I had personally not considered a skill level to exist where one can reasonably attempt to learn this Liszt piece but still be helped by explicit finger markings. That was the source of my confusion. – KeizerHarm Dec 01 '20 at 10:12
  • @KeizerHarm Also keep in mind that not everyone who plays is doing so on a professional level. I have personally played the piece in question for my own enjoyment, though nowhere near on a level where I could think about selling tickets. And in this case, that seems to have been Liszt's intent - to help amateurs to play these pieces in their own homes without having to go to a concert hall to hear them. – Darrel Hoffman Dec 01 '20 at 13:58
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I would blame the publisher or editor. They can be overzealous when it comes to simplifying things or fill out a page.

I did some engraving for a publisher and he made me add sporadic fingerings, dynamic markings and phrasing marks. This was back in the day when Finale was just coming out and most all submissions were handwritten. I remember contacting the composer for one work who took all that for granted and really had no opinion one way or the other. I had him mail me A CASSETTE of him playing so I could capture his intent. It didn't help so I added my own. Blame me.

Malcolm Kogut
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