I was always a guitar player and so I never really cared about the difference but since starting piano it is a bit annoying writing the guitar parts since I always have to transpose by an octave. Is there any reason why you can't write guitar music just the same as piano on the grand staff? I think if you use both instruments then wouldn't it make more sense to keep the guitar in its right octave?
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3Proposal: all guitar music should be written in alto clef instead. – Michael Seifert Jul 02 '20 at 11:51
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Closely related [question](https://music.stackexchange.com/q/22219/2600). – guidot Jul 02 '20 at 13:40
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@MichaelSeifert - that would most likely work quite well. '*But we've always done it this way...'* – Tim Jul 02 '20 at 15:16
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I'm following up on @Tim's answer. I didn't use a comment because I wanted to show a picture and discuss it.
As you can see, the notes that fit on a typical guitar fret-board fit nicely on the treble stave. There are roughly the same number of ledger lines above and below the stave.
I personally have trouble with more than 3 ledger lines and in the picture you will notice that this takes you neatly from bottom E on the open 6th string to top E on the twelfth fret of the 1st string. Ok there are a few higher notes but these are much more rarely played.
chasly - supports Monica
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3Thanks for the diagram. I agree that they do fit nicely but they fit rather nicely on the grand stave without having to use any additional ledger lines and those playing piano are already used to these notes and the grand stave. I guess I am just not so convinced that writing the guitar like this is right if you are already used to piano. Yes, if you only play guitar then it is better because you dont need to learn the bass stave. – armani Jul 02 '20 at 06:01
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1@armani - if you're used to piano (maybe 10% of guitarists) then just using treble clef is no big deal. Often the r.h. in piano music uses ledger lines. I reckon if guitar music was written on grand stave, even fewer guitar players would bother with dots! – Tim Jul 02 '20 at 09:12
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2So why is guitar music not written in a _tenor_ clef? That looks just like the treble clef, but with a subscript ‘8’ indicating that it's written an octave higher than it sounds. It has the benefits of fitting nearly on the stave _and_ being precise about the actual pitch. (Which is exactly why it's used for tenor voices, of course.) – gidds Jul 02 '20 at 13:56
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@armani I guess that the bass stave was thought to be reserved for.. bass? "Don't meddle with the affairs of bassists, as they are subtle and quick to anger" – Kaddath Jul 02 '20 at 13:59
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4@gidds - Have a look at this ---> http://classical-guitar.net/Pic/classical_guitar_score.gif .You might spot a little subscript lurking there. This is the norm for classical guitar. Transcriptions of popular music tend to simplify. They don't want to constantly field questions about "What does that little 8 mean?" – chasly - supports Monica Jul 02 '20 at 14:04
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2@gidds That's not what I would call tenor clef. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/clef#Tenor_clef – npostavs Jul 02 '20 at 15:37
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3@npostavs That page says: “As the true tenor clef has fallen into disuse in vocal writings, this "octave-dropped" treble clef is often called the tenor clef.” I've never heard of nor seen this ‘true’ tenor clef in any vocal or choral music, so that ‘often’ may if anything be an understatement :-) – gidds Jul 02 '20 at 15:57
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@gidds If anyone does call it "the tenor clef", that would be misleading, seeing that that is the name of a different clef. The fact that the tenor clef is no longer used in vocal music is moot, because it is still used in instrumental music -- for cello, bassoon and tenor trombone. – Rosie F Aug 04 '20 at 18:54
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If it was written in the same octave that it was played in, it would stray too often into the much lower parts of the grand stave. By keeping it where it is written, apart from the notes on the bottom and 5th string, most of its notes are happily placed within the treble clef, with only three ledger lines needed below that for the lowest notes.
Putting the notes into the bass clef would mean that too often, the notes played would be on even more ledger lines above that stave.
Tim
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This is most interesting. I did read that if you play a C Major chord on the guitar, you also have to play the C and the E an octave higher in order to make it sound "fuller". Why do you have to do this, Tim? – cmp Jul 01 '20 at 20:19
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But if the lowest actual pitch of standard guitar is `E2` and cello is `C2` it does seem like guitar could use the same clefs as cello: bass with clef changes in higher registers. – Michael Curtis Jul 01 '20 at 21:04
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@Tim thanks. So what if it strays into the bass clef? It sounds like you are saying that the bass clef should be avoided. – armani Jul 02 '20 at 05:58
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The basic concept of one staff for an instrument generally works well. Obviously not for piano! But some instruments have their range in unusual places, so they would use the **C clef**. However, guitar with its lowest note needing only three ledger lines, fits the treble clef as well as is needed. Even going up to the dusty end, three ledger lines above caters for that - any higher, and the oft used *8va* comes out to play. Seeing guitar music written in bass clef? Very unusual! – Tim Jul 02 '20 at 06:24
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@cmp You don't *have* to do that; it's just that in the most common position, the C chord includes an extra C and E above. – Javier Jul 02 '20 at 12:40
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@MichaelCurtis - what would be the point in complicating the issue with changes of clef? With a range of a comfortable 3 octaves without going too far up the neck, the treble clef one octave out works, and has worked for a long, long time. If it ain't broke... – Tim Jul 02 '20 at 12:52
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@Tim, I'm _not_ actually suggesting a change. I'm comparing the ranges. – Michael Curtis Jul 02 '20 at 13:59
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@cmp - because we can. The notes (whichever beong to the chord) are available to be played easily, so we tend to include them. We could even play a G on top string instead, if we felt like it - it's easily frettable. The actual number of each note from a chord that's playable is up to reachability, and the decision of the player. One of each suffices - maybe even leave out a 5, but sometimes we can have three of one note name - as it happens, in standard open C, there's two of each. In open A, there's two A, three E and that leaves one C#. – Tim Jul 02 '20 at 15:22
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It would only 'stray' to a single ledger line below the bass clef, for the low E, so I don't think that's a reason at all. And 'more ledger lines above that stave' is just a false argument, as the higher notes would transfer to the treble clef. Perhaps it's just that the Grand Staff is more suited to keyboard, where each hand is often confined to either bass or treble clef. – Biscuit Taylor Jan 20 '23 at 21:20
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As to the original question, I think it was answered somewhere in there. But there was a lot of convoluted speculation about the issue. The rule is simple: the actual pitch intended is to be written higher (so it sounds an octave lower) on the treble staff with the guitar's open, low E string in the space below the third (F) ledger line. Unfortunately, many arrangers/orchestrators and composers were never taught this, so sometimes it's up to the guitarist to figure out the intention. It is currently (and for a very long time) the best way to do it. And the reason is, as suggested, you'd get blurry-eyed and frustrated counting ledger lines below the staff. On the other hand, and though it probably will never happen, a grand staff for guitar might work because modern electric guitar playa way above the staff. Now I'm speculating . Sorry. Anyway, the use of 8va etc. is a reasonable approach.
Tim Norris
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Guitar and piano have different sustain, different harmonicity/overtones, different purity of tone. For actual full-bodied chords, playing at the same pitch as you would with guitar chords might actually make for a rather muddy sound.
So when composing for guitar, the true pitch may actually end up a worse approximation of chordal content than playing at the octave-transposed pitch (namely playing as if the clef were not transposing). The optimum equivalent probably lies somewhere in the middle.