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A contractor that I hired messed up quite a bit and I am looking for the easiest way to resolve my situation before winter comes (Is it safe to use Category 1 80,000BTU furnace with 2 in PVC exhaust?)

So far, it seems like the path of least resistance is to get a high efficiency unit and re-install 2inch PVC pipe for exhaust. All high efficiency furnaces require an outside air intake, but google is finding information that suggests otherwise.

HVAC system is sitting in about 24x28.25x7 garage that has minimal airflow. Old system was 75,000 BTU with 92% efficiency, and was keeping up OK for the most part. An upgrade to heating power would be welcome. (100,000BTU if possible).

Can someone explain how not having an outside air intake will affect safety/longevity/performance of a high efficiency system?

Dimi
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    What does the manufacturer of this unit say about outside air intake and exhaust? You must install it according to their specifications or you risk damaging the unit or causing a dangerous situations for occupants in the home. – jwh20 Sep 09 '21 at 09:34
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    Is weatherizing + ditching gas (going to heat pump electric heating instead) an option for you? – ThreePhaseEel Sep 09 '21 at 11:43
  • @ThreePhaseEel last few winters, 75,000BTU gas furnace with 92% efficiency was barely able to keep up with our heating demand. If I go with electrical heater in my area, I would need to spend about $300-$500 more per season. I am researching pros/cons of electrical heaters right now to see if there are any benefits besides safety. Thank you – Dimi Sep 09 '21 at 12:56
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    I am not a heating installer, but, in view of your questions here, it seems to me that if you want to avoid your house burning down after you've died of carbon monoxide poisoning, you should get a properly-qualified installer to perform whatever remedial actions are needed on the installation. – Andrew Morton Sep 09 '21 at 17:07
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    What you had : (75kBTU x 0.92) = 69kBTU effective heating power. What you "upgraded" to : (80kBTU x 0.8) = 64kBTU. So your crappy new inefficient furnace is even weaker than what you had before. Yes, if it's not too late, definitely go for higher efficiency. If that much heating power can't keep your house warm it's either a mansion or it's insulated like a cardboard box. I'm in Canada with freezing winters and a big house and 80kBTU-95% has plenty of headroom. Fix your insulation! – J... Sep 09 '21 at 17:08
  • Adding an air intake for a furnace is an easy job - drill a hole in the wall and put a pipe in. It's cheaper than installing a metal flue all the way up to the roof. – J... Sep 09 '21 at 17:10
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    Heat pumps: *"If I go with electrical heater in my area, I would need to spend about $300-$500 more per season. I am researching pros/cons of electrical heaters right now to see if there are any benefits besides safety"*. Research MUCH harder. That's not how heat pumps work. I know what you mean by electrical heating, that's not what heat pumps are. Technology briefer 1: [what is a heat pump](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J52mDjZzto). Briefer 2: [an even bigger win](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zrx-b2sLUs). Same guy: [gas furnaces](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBVvnDfW2Xo). – Harper - Reinstate Monica Sep 09 '21 at 18:30
  • @FreeMan Resistive electric "toaster coil" heating is so stupidly inefficient that no one on StackExchange would ever suggest it. Least of all ThreePhaseEel. TPE is referring to *heat pumps* which you should find out about since they are *actual magic*. See briefers in last comment. – Harper - Reinstate Monica Sep 09 '21 at 18:33
  • oy, @Harper-ReinstateMonica, that's what I get for posting & working at the same time. My bad. – FreeMan Sep 09 '21 at 18:35
  • @J... Honestly, if I tell you about how terrible insulation/ductwork is at my house, you will think that I am actually joking. Lets just say that previous house owner did a little DIY with heated floors by removing ducts that go to registers and letting hot air go in between floors. On top of that, old unit was undersized as previous owner did not upgrade HVAC system after furnishing 1k sqft basement... – Dimi Sep 09 '21 at 18:59
  • Well, furnace and A/C capacity doesn't relate to *finished* square footage. It relates to the house's outer skin and its ability to stop drafts. You yourself decide what fraction of money you'd like to invest in better HVAC vs better insulation/draftstopping vs high energy bills. You pay all ways. There is no "refuse to pay". – Harper - Reinstate Monica Sep 09 '21 at 19:32
  • If you are getting a new furnace and re-installing new PVC exhaust pipe, what is the big deal with installing an intake pipe? Especially if the furnace is in the garage? It's just two PVC pipes instead of one. And there are concentric ones available, although they don't necessarily provide any benefit in all situations. You CAN burn room air. The replacement air has to come from somewhere. If it's a garage you could just install a grille to the outside instead of a pipe. But why? – jay613 Sep 09 '21 at 19:42
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    Update: Not sure if one of the agencies that I reported him to reached out to him, or if one of his 'colleagues' was an actual certified HVAC technician, but contractor completely changed his tune and went from "I already did all the work. Contract is done. I cannot return unit. If you want new one you have to pay me for new unit and full re-installation costs" to "Just pay me the difference for high efficiency furnace and one that you have, I will replace it for free.". Thanks everyone for giving me courage and information I needed. Y'all might have just saved my life. Will post updates. – Dimi Sep 09 '21 at 19:52
  • @Dimi High efficiency is better all around - a furnace will last *well* over a decade so the energy savings over that time will be massive. If it's not too late (and you really can't go heat pump), try to get a **fully modulating** furnace - that will allow it to operate not just in two stages, but over a whole range of output powers. I'm sure in your area (TN?) you really shouldn't need more than 40-50kBTU to keep the house warm if you actually fix the insulation problem and a modulating furnace will be better able to adapt once you plug all of those leaks and don't need so much peak power. – J... Sep 09 '21 at 20:04
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    @J... Reached out to a couple of business in the area and got a fully licensed, experienced HVAC technician to come out. Saying that he was 'extremely concerned' for my safety and safety of contractor's previous clients when he heard about PVC exhaust pipe is an understatement. He explain that 'contractor' probably was confused because old furnace that he was replacing was janitrol gun075-3, a category IV furnace WITHOUT an air intake. He probably believed that it was 80% system, and it was completely fine to just replace it without doing anything else. House is ~3000 sqft with 7-12ft ceilings – Dimi Sep 09 '21 at 20:25
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    @Dimi He's being generous by making those excuses - this is an error of *gross negligence*. Being "confused" about something as critical as this is like a heart surgeon being "confused" about which pipe connects to the heart and which one goes to the intestine. There is no excuse. – J... Sep 09 '21 at 21:54
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    @Dimi -- take a good heatpump (the Mitsubishi Hyper-Heat models are a very good start) and run an [economic balance point calculation](https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/Finding-Balance-Heat-Pump-Heating-Load-vs-Capacity) (see Dave Butler's comments for the how-to) for your house, assuming that that roughly 69kBTU load was somewhere around design temperature for your area -- if you need to look that up, [use these tables](https://higherlogicdownload.s3.amazonaws.com/ACCA/c6b38bda-2e04-4f93-bd51-7a80525ad936/UploadedImages/Outdoor-Design-Conditions-1.pdf) – ThreePhaseEel Sep 09 '21 at 23:25

3 Answers3

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Problem #1: It can kill you

If you have a modern, competently built house, you have a very tight house that does not like to leak air from outside. That is for heating/cooling efficiency. Air is a thing, it's not just magic. If you push air out of a well-sealed house, it will draw a vacuum on the house, just like charging an air compressor tank, but in reverse. The furnace is not designed to do that, so weird things will happen, like carbon monoxide staying in the home and killing you.

Problem #2: It's inefficient.

It is the same problem as portable A/C's, really. Both machines have 2 air streams: a) the house air that is being treated (warmed/cooled)..... and b) the process air the machine need to run on. (A/C makes this air hot; furnace burns it). So we have 4 air ins and outs:

  • House air input (raw air from the house, already near correct temp, so reuse it)
  • house air output (treated air into the house)
  • Process air input (???????)
  • Process air exhaust (CANNOT discharge inside the house!!!)

But out of general laziness and cheapness, portable A/C's and 80% gas furnaces only have exhaust pipes for process air output. They steal their process air *input" from inside the house.

This tries to "draw a vacuum" on the house, e.g. Problem #1. But even if your house is old and leaky and the stolen "process air" can easily be replaced by air leakage from outside... there's still another problem. The outside air is exactly what you DON'T want. When you're heating, you don't want ice cold, dry outside air that will have to be heated AND humidified - and this makes drafts! When you're air conditioning, you don't want to draw in hot muggy outside air.

Because those things defeat the purpose. Making the system work even harder at worse efficiency still.

This is why these 1-pipe appliances are stupid.

"I don't like electric heat"

Who can blame you? Electric resistive heat (i.e. just having a bunch of toaster coils to make heat) is the most inefficient thing on earth. It's laughable to even discuss it, unless you're in a place with such a glut of winter power that they give you favorable electric rates (North Carolina, Ontario).

But you say you don't like electric heat? Let's talk about humidification. Humidity is made of the same stuff as heat. Let's suppose the air is dry and you want to add 1 pound of water to the air to make it more humid. Thanks to the latent heat of vaporization, turning 1 pound of tap water from liquid to vapor takes 1200 BTU of heat energy. It's heat. It's the same stuff.

When you're heating your house, replacing this humidity takes more heat. When you're air conditioning, removing this humidity by condensing it takes more cooling.

So you say "no problem, I'll correct the humidity shortage with this humidifier". An electric humidifier, right? Well, that humidifier is also spending 1200 BTU per pound of water, and you're doing that with inefficient electricity. Which is the thing not to do.

So sucking process air from outside is much more costly than you would initially think.

Get the second pipe.

PSA: Heat pumps are vastly cooler than you can imagine.

I saw comments that were like "Heat pump" and "electric heat no way". It's not like that.

Heat pumps are actual, literal magic. They do the thermodynamically impossible: create more heat than they use. Way more. (Well, they're not creating it, they are stealing it thanks to our old frenemy Latent Heat of Vaporization.)

Anyway, here are some technology briefers on the subject:

Early heat pumps had a problem working below freezing weather - and that was a problem in Texas during their cold snap; all the electric emergency heat overloaded the grid.

However first, extended range heat pumps are now available that work at much colder temperatures, and second, ground-sourcing moots the issue.

Harper - Reinstate Monica
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  • While heat pumps are indeed cool, there's a lot of factors you have to consider to see whether installing one makes sense for you: ratio of gas/electricity price, climate, compatibility of the heating system. Say, here in Europe a MJ in gas costs about a third of a MJ in electricity, so your heat pump needs to have a coefficient of performance of at least 3 to be worth it. That's easy to achieve with a low-temperature system (floor heating, I guess forced air as well), fairly hard to achieve with hot-water radiators. – TooTea Sep 10 '21 at 09:56
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    Are you able to get a commitment from your gas vendor that gas prices will not change through the depreciation lifetime of the furnace? Where does Europe get its gas again? – Harper - Reinstate Monica Sep 10 '21 at 21:01
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Today's heat pumps blow gas out of the water for you, especially given how awful your new furnace is

Given your location, the current rates your utility provider (KUB) charges of $1.0189/therm for all therms of gas over the first 30 (and higher for the first 30 therms) and $0.09186/kWh for residential electricity (or lower for offpeak), 23°F for your location's 99% winter design temperature, a quite generous operating furnace efficiency of 90% for your existing furnace, and the procedure for finding the economic balance point that Dave Butler gives in his last comments on this EnergyVanguard post, we can compute the economic crossover COP for a heat pump in your situation. Going through the computation assuming all regulatory and service charges are fixed, your gas heat cost per-therm comes out to $1.1321, while your electric heat cost per-therm for resistance heat (COP of 1) is $2.6915. Dividing the electric heat cost per-therm by the gas heat cost per-therm gives us our economic crossover COP, which is 2.38 under the rather pessimistic assumptions given for your case.

As it turns out, this is not a terribly hard number for a modern heat pump to beat. In fact, given that you'd need a 5-ton/60kBTU heat pump to match your existing system, current generation mini-splits can nearly match this number at 17°F, with the MXZ-8C60NA2 turning in a COP of 2.2 at that temperature while providing 65kBTU of heat. Furthermore, I seriously doubt your current furnace will ever make 90% running efficiency and the first 30 therms of gas are more expensive than the rate we used for this calculation, so the actual economic crossover COP for your situation is likely to be lower than the number computed here, making the heat pump even more attractive. Atop this, if you weatherize well enough to get the load down to 48-50kBTU or less, you can downsize the heat pump, which opens up many more options, some which will have better performance yet! (Do ask your local housing authority about weatherization financing programs while you're at it -- many places have grants or low-cost loans available for these sorts of envelope upgrades.)

ThreePhaseEel
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Oxygen is burned during heating process. If air circulating in closed volume, after time oxygen percentage is down. It causes lower efficiency of gas heater.

user263983
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  • In a well sealed structure , the furnace will not work. It must have fresh air ( oxygen) at atmospheric pressure . The exhaust/flue gas, leaving the furnace must be replaced. – blacksmith37 Sep 09 '21 at 14:45
  • Is there an easy way to measure efficiency/performance/airflow of a system? Like a CO sensor for exhaust or oxygen sensor for a room? I think we will try to install a high efficiency system without an outside air intake and only have a single PVC exhaust pipe. I would like to see if there are 'enough holes in walls' for this system, and maybe hire a different contractor to do air intake if it is necessary. – Dimi Sep 09 '21 at 17:08
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    @Dimi Furnaces don't **need** the outside air intake, but it does dramatically improve the air quality in the house and the overall ability of the house to retain heat. Without it you're using room air to combust and are venting it outside. That means that combustion air is replaced by cold outside air which has to be sucked into the house. The intake pipe lets you properly air seal the house, get rid of the cold makeup air duct, and install a proper ventilator like an HRV so that your fresh air can come in with **much** less heat loss. – J... Sep 09 '21 at 17:23
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    @user253751 SAY WHAT? You *have to have* an outside exhaust. Every fuel burning furnace must have an exhaust ***or you will kill everyone in the house***. That's not even a question! The only discussable matter is whether it has an intake. – Harper - Reinstate Monica Sep 09 '21 at 18:23