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I saw that some people trying to differentiate science into western and eastern. What are the criteria for parting them?

Wenura
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    see e.g. Toby Huff's [The Rise of Early Modern Science: Islam, China, and the West](https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/rise-of-early-modern-science/9B29A8E0D238FC9F842E18582BF47C88) as well as [Intellectual Curiosity and the Scientific Revolution: A Global Perspective](https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/intellectual-curiosity-and-the-scientific-revolution/2F4FAD59FC3F9F1CA299A43C05D25832). – Mauro ALLEGRANZA Jun 09 '22 at 11:26
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    Can you give an example of what you mean? I suspect what you have encountered is something like how Historical Materialism and Freudian Psychoanalysis were 'marketed' as scientific, but did not share fundamental qualities with it - this led to the demarcation problem. 'Eastern sciences' are generally going to be about spiritual practice. Our definitions for science & philosophy come out of a specific Western discourse & there are other discourses https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/82728/what-is-the-difference-between-western-and-other-philosophies/82738#82738 – CriglCragl Jun 09 '22 at 12:38

2 Answers2

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  1. Science is a universal enterprise. If somebody tries to differentiate science into western and eastern, I suspect that he/she follows some non-scientific interests.

  2. Science defines itself by its method and its domain of investigation.

    Concerning the method:

  • Precise language, often using technical terms.

  • Striving for intersubjectively accepted and testable results.

  • Open-ended, correcting errors.

    Typical domains of scientific investigations:

  • Natural science, mathematics, philology, historical studies, sociology, psychology.

  1. On the other hand, a deplorable obstacle against scientific historical and philological investigation in academia is nationalism. E.g., in the field of indology controversial results are often assessed whether they are obtained by scholars from western universities or from academic institutions in the subcontinent.
Jo Wehler
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    Like, that's fine, but what about competing definitions? *Why* this definition? What does universal mean, for instance when there are lasting disputes? What are the sources or contexts to see it like this? I feel this is not so different from a dictionary definition. – CriglCragl Jun 09 '22 at 12:43
  • @CriglCragl I'm reminded of my Philosophy prof who said we can only determine truth after the fact, by results. So, maybe *this* definition is simply: "*This is as far as we have gotten*"? – Scott Rowe Jun 09 '22 at 12:50
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    @CriglCragl If you propose a competing characterization of science then I’m curious to hear your proposal. – Universal = independent from geography. - Which lasting disputes do you mean? – Context dependency is exactly the OP’s question. How would you answer? Note that the OP‘s question is on science in general, it is not restricted to philosophy. – Jo Wehler Jun 09 '22 at 15:41
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    I'd look to Durkheim on how groups are bound together by the enactment of shared values, with a buy-in of sharing core values like a social-contract, in this case about the primacy of observations & evidence: https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/74408/philosophical-assumptions-underlying-science/75434#75434 Whether science only aims to predict observations or also to explain evidence is a lasting cause of dispute, eg Hossenfelder holds the former & Rovelli the latter. There are *sciences*, each with their own methods, eg medicine must grapple with purely subjective experiences. – CriglCragl Jun 09 '22 at 18:57
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    @ScottRowe: "I do not know what I may appear to the world, but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me." - Isaac Newton – CriglCragl Jun 09 '22 at 19:00
  • "controversial results are often assessed whether they are obtained by scholars from western universities or from academic institutions in the subcontinent": how is that a deplorable nationalism? – J.G. Jun 09 '22 at 19:34
  • @CriglCragl Newton, the slacker. Wasting all that time on bourgeois things like inventing Calculus and figuring out gravity. Why didn't he do something *important*? – Scott Rowe Jun 09 '22 at 19:52
  • I'm thinking that shared values should be based on things you can kick - things which are indisputable. But then, they wouldn't be values, they would just be existence. If it isn't as certain as that maybe we could just call it an opinion? – Scott Rowe Jun 09 '22 at 19:56
  • @ J.G. Example: Do the Vedas have their origin in India or are they imported by migration from outside India? Indian nationalism favours the first alternative because it presents Indian culture as independent from external sources. It considers the second alternative an attempt to degrade the originality of Indian culture. – The indigenous Harappa culture is highly sophisticated, but it cannot be considered the source of the Vedic culture. Unfortunately the Harappa seals are not yet decoded. – Jo Wehler Jun 09 '22 at 20:11
  • Maybe the boundary should just be, like, Earth. – Scott Rowe Jun 09 '22 at 20:18
  • @ScottRowe: Can't get an ought from an is. But there **are** oughts.. Intersubjective ones. – CriglCragl Jun 09 '22 at 20:43
  • @CriglCragl, valid point (re prediction/explanation) deserving an answer, except medicine is _not_ science. It's a practice, and its goal is _results_ rather than expanding the knowledge. Modern medicine _incorporates_ some science (e.g. test methods, statistical analysis), and some even argue it could be detrimental to the results at times. – Zeus Jun 10 '22 at 01:19
  • @Zeus: I'd say that's problematic in a range of ways. It's the same attitude that says interpretations in quantum mechanics are not part of science. That is, a retroactive definition, that's blinkered, & not grounded in a clear picture of science. See a good discussion here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3190445 Physics has become the template, the archetype of science in it's 'pure' form. That is ahistorical as a picture of science in general, & I'd say profoundly misguided - 'impure' sciences are still sciences. Observation, evidence, that's the criteria. – CriglCragl Jun 10 '22 at 05:26
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Ah, me... Sorry, that's a reproving eye-roll at the intellectual world in general, not at the question itself.

This Eastern/Western science split traces back to a particularly devoted segment of the Karl Popper fan-base, who wanted to use Popper's notion of pseudoscience to attack and discredit traditional forms of medical treatment, particularly 'Chinese' or 'Eastern' medicine (due to the growing prominence of such in the '80s and '90s). Set aside the fact that Popper's theories were largely consigned to the historical dust bin by the time this medical dispute arose: their basic argument was that 'Western' medicine is based on structured empirical research paradigms ('falsifiable', in Popper's nomenclature) while 'Eastern' (traditional) medicines are steeped in religion, metaphysics, or other, uhhh... — to their mind, airy-faerie nonsensical crap — and thus little more than snake-oil peddled by unscrupulous bad actors to an ignorant public. They were quite aggressive in their pursuits, and hammered this distinction between Western science and Eastern malarky mercilessly.

Those who used or practiced these forms of traditional medicine were (predictably) a bit annoyed. They argued that traditional (particularly Chinese or Eastern) medicine worked on a different and complementary paradigm — the idea of wholistic balanced health ('wellness'), as opposed to the Western focus on the containment or elimination of disease and dysfunction — and that Eastern practices have a long history of empirical investigation. Nothing as rigorous as modern scientific medical investigation, obviously (since that only came to the fore at the turn of the 19th century), but still scientific enough in its own way. And note that the use of the term 'paradigm' here invokes Kuhn's "Structure of Scientific Revolutions", the book which drove a stake through the otherwise undying heart of Popper's falsificationism. It is, thus, not something Popper's devotees were or are likely to embrace.

And so an overt attack on traditional medicine by advocates of a mostly defunct philosophy of science de-evolved into a dispute about the nature of scientific investigation itself, with the terms 'Eastern' and 'Western' senselessly held over from the earlier dispute. While I can't object to disputes in the philosophy of science about the nature of the scientific method, what we have here isn't that. It's a tempest in a sociopolitical teakettle that serves no fruitful intellectual purpose. I'd argue it serves no purpose whatsoever, except that it offers the opportunity (like any good teakettle) to make loud, shrill whining noises. But I suspect I'm jaded on the issue...

Ted Wrigley
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    I don't know if you have a source for the bashing of traditional medicine originating with 1980s Popper fans, but criticism of a specific TM claim is instead usually phrased today in terms of statistical criteria, such as the outcomes of double-blind trials. It hasn't died in conjunction with any anti-Popperian shifts. As the question sought West-East demarcation criteria you think robust, you could improve your answer by saying if [Kuhn's puzzle-solving criterion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demarcation_problem#Kuhnian_postpositivism) addresses that. – J.G. Jun 09 '22 at 19:52
  • @J.G.: I'm not complaining about *science*. I'm complaining about *scientism*, and about those people who have a hard time distinguishing between the two. The fact that double-blind tested medical practices are effective in no way implies that other practices are ineffective (or worse). And I'm sorry, but if you're not aware that people using a Popperean stance have been trashing alternative medicine as 'pseudoscience' (a specifically Popper-derived term), then you clearly haven't looked very far into the issue.Asking me to source common knowledge is tendentious, at best. – Ted Wrigley Jun 09 '22 at 23:09
  • But that's all beside the point: is traditional medicine Kuhnian science as much as is Western medicine or not? That would make for a great answer. If you can edit that in, please do, even if you'd like to keep what's already there. – J.G. Jun 10 '22 at 06:16
  • @TedWrigley Afaik Kuhn's paradigm shift idea was not concerned with the scientific method but rather with the model building. Like "normal science" is working within a model and upgrading it and a paradigm shift is moving to a different model. Neither criticizes the method by which science is done. That is a totally different use of "paradigm". And the problem with tradition and religion is that it's rather unsatisfying in terms of what you can explain, "we did it like that forever and it works". Science: Cool, BUT WHY? – haxor789 Jun 15 '22 at 12:37
  • @haxor789: For Kuhn, the 'scientific method' is only defined within normal science: it is dictated by the given paradigm, and subject to change when the paradigm shifts. And science as such rarely tackles 'why' questions. I mean honestly, solid concepts like 'gravity', 'inertia', 'magnetism' etc might as well be magic given how little we understand about them. Science is good at what/how questions: anything of the form: "What do we have to do to get outcome X?" But scientific "Whys" are still matters of speculative hand-waving. – Ted Wrigley Jun 15 '22 at 14:43
  • @haxor789: The real difference is that modern science presumes that causal forces are rigid, invariant, and (for lack of a better word) 'lifeless' — part of the current paradigm — while traditional approaches are more open on the question. This doesn't mean that they necessarily invoke a 'god' (a living, conscious entity behind the force), but that they don't necessarily discard ideas that don't fit in neat little boxes. I mean, if we dropped the word 'chi' and replaced it with 'metabolic homeostasis' it might sound less metaphysical but it wouldn't really change the concept. – Ted Wrigley Jun 15 '22 at 15:10
  • @TedWrigley Could you further explain that? Like what scientific revolution ever broke the scientific method? What it kinda broke was the idea that you could build an ever better and more complex model. But instead of expanding idk the flat earth theory to ridiculous complexity in order to explain every outlier people would rather apply Occam's razor and pick a theory that is more practical, losing most of the flat earth era achievements other than the data. But that is still in line with the scientific method (this back and forth of deduction and induction), isn't it? – haxor789 Jun 15 '22 at 17:52
  • @TedWrigley Also my bad, the question is "HOW", "WHY" would be kinda religious, but I think that was obvious from the context, wasn't it? And what do you mean by "causal forces being rigid, invariant and lifeless"? I mean if it's caused by an independent agent and is fully erratic then you're screwed anyway trying to explain. If it follows even stochastic patterns you have a little chance and science is already dealing with those models. And you can get around rigidity by changing the spacial and temporal scale, like smaller and shorter time steps. It's just computationally expensive. – haxor789 Jun 15 '22 at 18:03
  • @haxor789: Aside from a general prescription to test theories against observable phenomena in the world, what constitutes a uniform 'method' in science? Are the methods of physics the same as the methods of chemistry, or the methods of psychology, or the methods of anthropology? People have been trying to define a uniform scientific method for at least a hundred years, but the questions still hasn't been settled. By the way, the problem with flat earthers is that they refuse to accept empirical evidence that comes from indirect (technological) observation. Luddites... – Ted Wrigley Jun 15 '22 at 18:42
  • @haxor789: As to the other question, the mathematics of science only deals well with simple, regular rules: rigid, invariant and lifeless ones. The orbital mechanics of two bodies is easy (one constant force on an easily defined barycenter), but the orbital mechanics of three bodies is unsolvable. That's why planar fluid flow is easily modeled while turbulent flow is still a grand headache. Most research tries to reduce complex interactions to simple action/reaction rules, but there are limits to how far that can be done without significant informational losses. – Ted Wrigley Jun 15 '22 at 18:55
  • Let us [continue this discussion in chat](https://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/137142/discussion-between-haxor789-and-ted-wrigley). – haxor789 Jun 15 '22 at 23:24