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Awkwardly synthesizing jobermark's old question Is there a boundary on 'physical'? with my (badly put) question Can physics talk about non-physical entities/concepts, and if not which academic department does?, finally pinpointing (I hope) what bugs me.

Let me start with what I'm hoping to find:

  1. Non-physical having causal effects on the physical (and vice versa).

  2. Clear enough definition (no matter how general it is) of physicality that'll distinct between physical and non-physical, or, will provide boundaries of physicality.

  3. A definition of physicality that'll account for the history of physics, the changes on how we viewed physics and non-physics.

  4. Not a dualistic solution.

In jobermark's question he presents the idea that the definition of physicality is so vague that it always expands and encompass what was in the past not considered physical (similar, in general, to the vagueness of "the scientific method"). Then he goes to state that this makes the distinction between physical and non-physical as near non-existent nowadays*.

My question was about the academic scope of this question, as in, not only conceptually, but practically - is a physicist able to talk about the non-physicality. This question seems more clear to me after going through jobermark's because it means that the physicist, if he talks about non-physical entities, might not know that it's in fact what he does because to him it seems like physical entities (because of, again, the vagueness of the definitions).

So after pinpointing that the root of the issue was at the definition level (which I basically tried to ignore in my question), and where jobermark's answers weren't suffice (at the end I think he took a turn in his answer, which seems to me like a bit of avoiding the problem) because while admitting the problem they haven't really provided a concrete answer (maybe there isn't one, and if so this question can be deleted).

So, my question will be - is there any clear enough definition of physics that answer the 4 requirements I've stated above?


(*although there are the ways that's been shown in the answers to Alexander's question How can something non-physical exist?, the first positing the distinction in abstractness/concreteness but agrees to providing physicality all of the causal realm [which isn't what I'm seeking]; the second doesn't really distinct them but rather takes a sort of holistic/monistic approach, which isn't bad but doesn't yet answers the question to its full extent [even in this holistic approach one needs to distinct where the physical end and the non-physical starts]; and another answer distributes the physical and non-physical to different areas of existence, which [I think] renders every attempt to bring non-physical causality to science as futile)

Yechiam Weiss
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    Possible duplicate of [What does "physical" mean to philosophers?](https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/41827/what-does-physical-mean-to-philosophers) – Conifold Mar 20 '18 at 17:49
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    @Conifold thanks, it is similar (although I pinpointed the answer more on the boundaries and the distinction between the physical and the non-physical, which is a bit more accurate than a general definition). But the answers to that question seems like what jobermark was complaining about in his question- almost all the answers say that either physical is undefined or that it'll simply encompass everything that can be studied in the natural science. In this way, there's no actual point in talking about ideals (non-subjective), because if they'll turn out to be real they'll be called physical. – Yechiam Weiss Mar 20 '18 at 18:31
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    Everything that can be studied in natural (or any) science is not everything, art and ethics have different purposes, for example, and ideals are typically studied in ethics. And even if everything science studies will be declared "physical" the point is to describe more precisely what it is and how it behaves, so I do not see a problem. As long as we do not yet have the full picture for the objective ideals, if any, what difference does it make if they will eventually be called "physical" or not? – Conifold Mar 20 '18 at 19:40
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    @Conifold I'm not talking about those different sciences. And there's no real problem with calling those phenomenons physical, it just seems that the linguistics can easily confuse, so much that we simply don't know what we're talking about when we're distinguishing between physical and non-physical. We can go ahead and call seemingly mental activities physical, but that's not what we mean when we say those two different words right? – Yechiam Weiss Mar 20 '18 at 20:11
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    That's just the problem, it is unclear what the purpose of the "definition" you want is. Such "definitions" are often used in descendants of medieval arguments for immateriality of souls, that something "can not possibly" be physical, but already Kant pointed out that those come uncomfortably close to appealing to ignorance. From the latest addition it seems that you may be interested in mental causation, but then the definition of "physical" is rather moot, and we have a multitude of threads on it already. – Conifold Mar 20 '18 at 21:09
  • @Conifold maybe this will be better phrased: assuming we have physical and non-physical (probably mental) causation, related to each other, how would we know where the line between the physical and the non-physical is? If physical is what's observable (for example), that means even those that apparently caused mental causation would really be physical, but what if there's a different set of rules that distinguish the mental from the physical? If we treat them as physical we might lose the whole point of why they were used to be conceived as "non-physical". – Yechiam Weiss Mar 20 '18 at 21:20
  • Without a proper definition and distinction between physical and mental (which is in itself requires heavy work on definition), we might lose valuable information of those apparently two different entities. – Yechiam Weiss Mar 20 '18 at 21:22
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    You seem to be making a rookie mistake that one needs a "proper definition" of X to talk about X: we do not need to know lines, nor should we care. "Definition" comes at the end of inquiry, not at its beginning, and we definitely do not need any "clear" mental/physical distinction, nor are we anywhere near giving a useful one (it is similar with living/inanimate). No "valuable information" will be lost on behalf of it because vagueness excludes little ("treating as physical" does not attach to any "set of rules"), it is distinctions, especially "clear" ones, that restrict options prematurely. – Conifold Mar 20 '18 at 21:50
  • @Conifold "treating physical does not attach to any set of rules" - so what are the laws of physics then? Do they apply to anything other than physics? Are they intrinsic, particular to physics? If so, then treating something different with those laws would be simply wrong. You may say that it'll just need an adjustment to the laws themselves, but what if what we're dealing with requires an entire different approach? Maybe something more dynamic than laws (just example)? Maybe something that has intrinsic randomness in its laws, maybe it doesn't even respond to a certain set of laws? – Yechiam Weiss Mar 20 '18 at 22:20
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    Laws of physics apply not to any "physical" but to particularly represented "physical". How exactly mental is represented as physical, if at all, we do not know, so laws are not much of a restriction, and even known laws already have "intrinsic randomness". As it is, staying agnostic on the issue is preferable, and "entirely different approach" is an idle speculation of little use unless it comes with a specific proposal. If so, it should be taken on its own merits, so again the distinction is moot. – Conifold Mar 20 '18 at 22:31
  • I'll only continue this here and not move to chat because it's important for the question. @Conifold so you're basically presenting a physicalist approach right? Now, first of all "laws of physics apply not to any physical but to particularly represented physical" - because we still haven't defined the laws well enough right? That still means there are (or at least we hope there are, or else science itself is moot) definitive laws that'll explain every physical phenomenon. – Yechiam Weiss Mar 21 '18 at 10:05
  • If we don't take the physicalist approach and we agree to accept that the laws of physics aren't necessarily involve other types of natural phenomenons, this would means that we perhaps need to start thinking about them differently. And staying agnostic about this isn't the best solution, because if you stay agnostic about something that's basically out of the reach of your general scope (and not current scope!), you have no hope to find what you're looking for, at least not in the way it should be (you'll probably somehow force them into your scope). – Yechiam Weiss Mar 21 '18 at 10:05
  • Very minor point, but I think you may mean "physicist" and not "physician". By physician, American English = medical doctor. – Gordon Mar 21 '18 at 18:32
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    "Represented" means that even assuming physicalism we do not know what physical properties correlate with mental phenomena, therefore we do not know which laws apply and how. And may I suggest that instead of the negative quest of delimiting and separating physical/non-physical, which promises to be as futile as your previous quest for science/non-science, a more productive approach might be positive one, to look at concrete proposals for explaining phenomena, say free will or consciousness, with an open ("agnostic") mind. Physicalists have such proposals, and so do dualists and idealists. – Conifold Mar 21 '18 at 19:39
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    By the way, this was Husserl's approach, to bracket in all presumptions and approach phenomena without worrying in advance whether they are physical or mental, real or imagined, etc. We do not have sufficient understanding of life or the mental for distinctions to be helpful. Think about how useless a definition of water would have been before molecular theory described its chemical composition as H2O, we are nowhere near that in those areas, so loose operational "definitions" are the best. – Conifold Mar 21 '18 at 19:45
  • @Conifold -- it is not just rookies who make the "start with definitions" rather than "end with definitions" mistake. I find this in very many veteran published philosophers. Bravo to you for pointing out it is an error. – Dcleve Dec 15 '18 at 17:30

3 Answers3

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Its a conceptual distinction to understand our experience. Theres only experience, but we categorize it to understand it. Einstein said:

"A basic conceptual distinction, which is a necessary prerequisite of scientific and prescientific thinking, is the distinction between “sense-impressions” (and the recollection of such) on the one hand and mere ideas on the other. There is no such thing as a conceptual definition of this distinction (aside from circular definitions, i.e., of such as make a hidden use of the object to be defined). Nor can it be maintained that at the base of this distinction there is a type of evidence, such as underlies, for example, the distinction between red and blue. Yet, one needs this distinction in order to be able to overcome solipsism. Solution: we shall make use of this distinction unconcerned with the reproach that, in doing so, we are guilty of the metaphysical “original sin.” We regard the distinction as a category which we use in order that we might the better find our way in the world of immediate sensations. The “sense” and the justification of this distinction lies simply in this achievement. But this is only a first step. We represent the sense-impressions as conditioned by an “objective” and by a “subjective” factor. For this conceptual distinction there also is no logical-philosophical justification. But if we reject it, we cannot escape solipsism. It is also the presupposition of every kind of physical thinking. Here too, the only justification lies in its usefulness. We are here concerned with “categories” or schemes of thought, the selection of which is, in principle, entirely open to us and whose qualification can only be judged by the degree to which its use contributes to making the totality of the contents of consciousness “intelligible.” The above mentioned “objective factor” is the totality of such concepts and conceptual relations as are thought of as independent of experience, viz., of perceptions. So long as we move within the thus programmatically fixed sphere of thought we are thinking physically. Insofar as physical thinking justifies itself, in the more than once indicated sense, by its ability to grasp experiences intellectually, we regard it as “knowledge of the real.” After what has been said, the “real” in physics is to be taken as a type of program, to which we are, however, not forced to cling a priori." A. Einstein, “Remarks concerning the essays brought together in this co-operative volume,” in Albert Einstein: Philosopher-Scientist, P. A. Schilpp, ed., pp. 665–88. Tudor Publishing Co., New York, 1949

For me we can talk about interior experiences, and external (physical) ones. The internal world acts on the external one all the time.

  • Good point. Pragmatically, we experience reasoning, logic, causation, and qualia experiences. None of these are demosntrated to be reducible to the physical, and there isn't even a plausible program to do so. To think, or do anything, we must pragmaticaly use experience, and reasoning. IE, even physicalists must work off non-physicalist starting assumptions. Pragmatically, we are forced to reject physicalism from the get go. – Dcleve Dec 16 '18 at 18:25
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Aristotle invented the word τὰ ϕυσικά ("ta physika," lit. "natural things"), which is the collective title of his physical treatises. Natura comes from natio = birth, so natural [or physical] things are generated, the product of a change.

(source)

Geremia
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In answering your headline question

What is the definition of physical?

I propose the following working definition: A phenomenon is physical if it can be investigated by the physical method. The latter is a synthesis of

  • Observation
  • Theory
  • Checking theory against observation.

I try to satisfy your requirements 2) - 4). But I do not understand your point 1). What is the requirement here?

Added: This working definition classifies the following issues named in the OP's comment:

  • What makes up the mind: Neuroscicence investigates the neuronal substrate of mental processes. Hence these investigations deal with physical phenomena.
  • Qualia. I take qualia = felt qualities. I consider these subjective phenomena on the border between physical and non-physical phenomena. E.g., the experience of colours is a physical phenomena, starting with investigating the principles underlying the cones in the retina.
  • A type of basically unobservable substance suggested in different interpretations of panpsychism: Apparently non-physical.
Jo Wehler
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  • Understandably, because your definition would include those "non-physical" entities. This would also (correct me if I'm wrong) entail physicalism, at least on the point of what can be studied as a natural phenomenon. I might need to include that in my question (requirement for non-physicalistic definition). Sorry if I'm somewhat vague here. – Yechiam Weiss Mar 21 '18 at 16:10
  • Please name some phenomena you consider non-physical. Possibly we can then decide whether they fall under my working definition or not. – Jo Wehler Mar 21 '18 at 16:13
  • What is considered under the realm of "idealism", in the broad sense that includes objective idealism. An example for a phenomena under this realm may be part of what makes up the mind, or what is considered "qualia", or a type of basically unobservable substance suggested in different interpretations of panpsychism. – Yechiam Weiss Mar 21 '18 at 16:17
  • The method of observation, hypothesis, test, revise -- is not limited to the physical. Scientists have historically applied this method, and reached a variety of physical, dual, and idealsit ontologies as an outcome. Your proposed boundary does not seem to work. – Dcleve Dec 15 '18 at 17:33
  • @Dcleve could you please give an example of, say, idealist ontology as an outcome of this method? – Yechiam Weiss Dec 15 '18 at 17:52
  • @Yechiam Weiss -- here is a set of idealists discussing the science evidence for their ontology. https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/book/beyond-physicalism-toward-reconciliation-of-science-and-spirituality/ Here is a neurologist whose experimentation lead to dualism: https://evolutionnews.org/2016/04/wilder_penfield/ – Dcleve Dec 15 '18 at 18:05
  • @Dcleve it isn't exactly accurate to say that these experiments show that the method is "not limited to the physical". These experiments are done on the physical, but by showing that the results doesn't give the whole picture the scientists conclude that there are more than the physical to the larger picture. The method is still applied to the physical. – Yechiam Weiss Dec 16 '18 at 17:56
  • @Yechiam Weiss, as babies and toddlers, we take the data from our experiences, and the experiments we perform on those experiences, and build a self image, a world model, and a theory of other minds. This is straight empiricism. It is based on pure experience, and the existence of the physical is an inference from it. Assertions that "physical" is a necessary precondition for empiricism are both demonstrated false in fact, and self-contradictory in logic. – Dcleve Dec 16 '18 at 18:14
  • I provided two examples of how people are continuing to use this method to do science that arrives at non-physical ontologies. Even more noteworthy -- the definer of how we do science today, Karl Popper, held that empiricism lead to a triplist ontology (3 worlds tanner lecture: https://tannerlectures.utah.edu/_documents/a-to-z/p/popper80.pdf). – Dcleve Dec 16 '18 at 18:19
  • @Dcleve so you're saying that a neuroscientist doesn't know it experiments on physical matter, but rather infer from the experiment that this is what it was? – Yechiam Weiss Dec 17 '18 at 05:29
  • @Yechiam Weiss, science opearates off the indirect realism approach to ontology. All data colllected is first person experience. Everything after that is tiers of inference. – Dcleve Dec 17 '18 at 06:52
  • @Dcleve so what would you call that "thing" the scientist experiments on? – Yechiam Weiss Dec 17 '18 at 10:47
  • @Yechiam Weiss, the consensus amog scientists is that the best characterization of the science/non-science border is defined by a methodology -- that of methodological naturalism that I outlined. The most crucial feature is testability/refutability of postulations. Subjects, or types of objects, or "experiments", are not useful boundary delimiters. The only major debate is over whether Poppers falsifiability methodology is too constraining -- see Against Method: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_Method. The "things" science studes, are just the "subjects of study". – Dcleve Dec 18 '18 at 23:00
  • @Dcleve I find this to be an ideal representation of science rather than what's true. I hardly believe that scientists don't assume the physical properties of their "subject of study" *before* experimenting. – Yechiam Weiss Dec 19 '18 at 06:15
  • @Yechiam Weiss, it isn't a "representation" of science, but a characterization of its boundary. That scientists might assume their hypotheses to be true -- is human nature -- but is not relevant in defining what the boundaries of science are. – Dcleve Dec 20 '18 at 04:21
  • @Dcleve with that I may agree with. But do you think that in practice scientists (or even philosophers of science!) notice this boundary? What do you find more common, that a scientist would assume its subject of study to be physical, or to be a clean-page-like subject of study? – Yechiam Weiss Dec 20 '18 at 06:00
  • And moreover: with that boundary in mind, where's the matter-idea conflict at? If both matter and idea can't be characterized scientifically, what is the place of the materialism-idealism debate? – Yechiam Weiss Dec 20 '18 at 06:02
  • @Yechiam Weiss, I follow Popper on this. He treated science as a subset of philosophy, which spawned off as separate fields as they became better characterized. If science is a subset of philosphy, then the methodology of science, methodological naturalism, is a useful epistemologic tool in the rest of philosophy. IE, one can usefully examine the plausibility and consequences of idealism, dualism, materialism, neutral monism, modern plationism, triplism, etc., using the postulate-derive-test-revise methodology. – Dcleve Dec 20 '18 at 15:42
  • @Dcleve and I ask you: how? It's not like you can scientifically examine dualism; the papers you brought are to be treated as philosophical interpretations of the "findings" - they do not postulate-derive-test-revise dualism itself, nor can they even use such method for this matter. – Yechiam Weiss Dec 20 '18 at 17:26
  • Unless you're saying that all these metaphysical "speculations" are to be considered just that, speculations, nothing that "real science" (hate that term but it's useful here) can say anything about -- and such, scientists always assume naturalism (/physicalism) to be the starting point, because it's (seemingly) simpler to use the falsification method for science. – Yechiam Weiss Dec 20 '18 at 17:26
  • But then "proving" (or justifying) other metaphysical "speculations" other than naturalism would prove to be much difficult, because naturalism is to be refuted first - which creates an inert epistemological issue for science's ground. – Yechiam Weiss Dec 20 '18 at 17:28
  • @Yechiam Weiss, I can provide an example. Here I apply testing to a set of critics of the possibility of an afterlife. https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R10Z02T2ZEYPFY?ref=pf_vv_at_pdctrvw_srp – Dcleve Dec 20 '18 at 17:34
  • @Dcleve overkill review ;) Very interesting read! I am partially convinced (not on the view you push in the review, but the point you're trying to make here). I would however like to repeat the biggest issue I'll be having with agreeing to this characterization: – Yechiam Weiss Dec 21 '18 at 10:43
  • quoting from your review- "A useful reference is Blackmore’s autobiography. She considers physcialism SO unquestionable, and psi so much in conflict with it, that she will always assume that any data supporting psi is invalid, and because there is always the possibility of experimental error or undetected cheating she will just assume one or the other has not yet been found"; "The first is that parts I and II did not provide any valid presumption in favor of phsycialism". – Yechiam Weiss Dec 21 '18 at 10:54
  • There is a very real sense that physicalism should not be backed by evidence while arguing against it should always carry the burden of proof -- this is mainly because our current science is inherently based on the (though often useful for experimentation purposes) assumption that naturalism/physicalism is the correct metaphysical world view. From your standing point of (I assume) Ensoulment substance dualism (or for that effect dualism in general), do you not consider this base assumption to be a huge burden upon modern science? – Yechiam Weiss Dec 21 '18 at 10:55
  • @Yechiam Weiss -- I disagree pretty absolutely with that presumption. Science was initially developed by spiritual dualists, and in the 19th century most of its maturers were idealists. Our best articulator of how to practice science, Karl Popper, was a triplest. And physicalism is falsified on both scientific and rationalistic terms. Scientific: hard problem unsolved. James/Popper evolutionary test case refuting epiphenomenalism and identity theory. Quantum physics shows that matter isn't even material, and appears to bascially be math equations. – Dcleve Dec 22 '18 at 00:34
  • Rational: both foundationalism and coherence rely upon priors of experience and reasoning, and the physical is an inference from them -- it is incoherent to deny the priors based on the inference. Almost all physicalists admit to the existence of logic and reasoning -- they cannot then be physical monists. And all definitions of physicalism fail. https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R13R2OUNXMIN6H?ref=pf_ov_at_pdctrvw_srp – Dcleve Dec 22 '18 at 00:42
  • Backing up failure of materialism to solve hard problem: https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R1LFTMUSP8VEWB?ref=pf_ov_at_pdctrvw_srp https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R1C1TJFIWBZ8ZQ?ref=pf_ov_at_pdctrvw_srp https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R1A8I0RTYJEDJM?ref=pf_ov_at_pdctrvw_srp – Dcleve Dec 22 '18 at 00:45
  • @Dcleve I might have not expressed my concerns properly. I'll start with asking: what are the test subjects of physics? Are they mathematical? Are they material(/physical)? Are they ideas? – Yechiam Weiss Dec 22 '18 at 16:34