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The SEP points out

For Descartes argued in his 1644 Principles of Philosophy (see Book II) that the essence of matter was extension (i.e., size and shape) because any other attribute of bodies could be imagined away without imagining away matter itself. But he also held that extension constitutes the nature of space, hence he concluded that space and matter were one and the same thing.

and

An immediate consequence of the identification is the impossibility of the vacuum; if every region of space is a region of matter, then there can be no space without matter. Thus Descartes' universe is ‘hydrodynamical’ — completely full of mobile matter of different sized pieces in motion, rather like a bucket full of water and lumps of ice of different sizes, which has been stirred around. Since fundamentally the pieces of matter are nothing but extension, the universe is in fact nothing but a system of geometric bodies in motion without any gaps.

A field being without gaps; should be subject to Parmenides argument: thus it should not move and be rigid; this on the face of it, seems quite surpising. But consider that a point of field, iin the usual sense, is contiguous with others - its neighbourhood; when the field has altered and we examine the same point; we see that it has the same neighbourhood - ie the principle of continuity.

This is of course very different from an electron concieved as a particle which when moved now occupies a different place or neighbourhood.

So, in this sense of motion, a field does as Parmenides point out, shows no motion - it is rigid; however this doesn't mean that it can't exhibit change which is a related notion - but how?

Mozibur Ullah
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  • Maybe it would serve to take this thought apart into smaller pieces. First of all it seems an interesting point in itself to argue that Descartes' mechanism is possibly closer to what today is called classical field theory than to what today is called classical point particle mechanics. Who else makes this point? I see one remark in this direction here: http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/René+Descartes#OnDusekOnDescartes – Urs Schreiber Apr 29 '15 at 19:19
  • @schrieber: Liebniz might be a possibility; there's an essay on dynamics where he explicitly moves away from an atomistic physics where action occurs only on impact; Dusek interestingly mentions Emile Meyerson as saying that physics is Parmenidian in its essence; though not in sufficient detail to say what he means by exactly by this. – Mozibur Ullah Apr 30 '15 at 11:54
  • It's perhaps more interesting to literally link Parmenide's monism with field's invariant such as *gauge invariance* from modern physics, but I doubt any concept from physics or anything empirical is what Parmenide conceived for his monism which is a purely ideal and universal metaphysical concept, much like Leibniz's monad which once properly constructed can make isomorphism to another such monad, and then we can view all such realized equivalences of monads as one single instantiation of Parmenide's monism type. – Double Knot Oct 10 '21 at 00:15
  • @Double Knot: Even Plato's idealism isn't purely ideal, so I don't see why Parmenidian monism must be. I also doubt that we can 'literally link' modern physical concepts to Parmenides. But we could, perhaps, say it's essence is, in that it emphasisrs invariances - that is an unchanging reality. Perhaps this is what Emile Myerson is suggesting. Liebniz's monads reminds me of the atoms of Lucretious, but he divided them into different types including soul atoms whilst Liebniz has simply one type. You might be interested or already aware that iHegel called each atom ... – Mozibur Ullah Oct 10 '21 at 00:49
  • @Double Knot: ... an instance of the Parmenidian one. This reminds me of your last sentence. – Mozibur Ullah Oct 10 '21 at 00:50
  • Actually Leibniz also classified monads to at least 3 types (maybe borrowed from Lucretious or some other sources as he mentioned Aristotle a lot): soul (highest), perceivable (animals and veges), bare (materials), and not all of them can be equivalented via whatever means due to his pre-established harmony. My last sentence is purely my own speculation and bear univalence axiom from modern homotopy type theory in mind to interpret Parmendine's monism which is not any unchangable object or invariant quantity but a witness realization of an ultimate *univalent* equality type... – Double Knot Oct 10 '21 at 01:04
  • @Double Knot: Well, Liebniz's *Monadology* begins by: "The Monad of which we here speak, is nothing but a simple substance, which enters into compounds" and the Wikipedia entry on the text reiterates the that Liebnizian monism means that there is only a single type of monad. Do you have an online reference for the assertion you make that he has 'at least 3 types'? You didn't mention the univalence axiom in your last comment, and like I have already said I'm not sure that we should be translating modern scientific concepts literally into more ancient terms - this method is ahistorical. – Mozibur Ullah Oct 10 '21 at 01:22
  • Perhaps I should state monadology has 3 levels not types in English as referenced [here](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/leibniz-mind/) in SEP and some other IEP sources I read before. *These are distinctive of the three levels of monads, respectively, the bare monads, souls, and spirits...* However, since in type theory any witness term has a unique type so I reason I'm not entirely off the mark. Btw, Leibniz hold monads pluralism and argued against Spinoza's single monad with different modalities position when he visited Spinoza's home... – Double Knot Oct 10 '21 at 01:33
  • ... but I guess this doesn't necessarily imply Leibniz disagree with Parmenide's monism at its core since he emphasized his master "oneness" monad throughout his monadology in line with his devoted Christianity theology... Metaphysics for me is free for any evidenced or pointed speculations to interpret positions and doctrines, so I have less such unsureness than you perhaps... – Double Knot Oct 10 '21 at 01:43
  • @Double Knot: You are confusing the types in type theory with the way the word 'type' is being used in the article you reference from the SEP. As you can see from the quote I reference, the 'bare monads' are the monads that Liebniz references, all the other 'levels' are not monads per se, but 'compounds'. Metaphysics, according to Kant to a degree can be thought about evidentially, that is dialectically, as Aristotle did both in his *Physics* and *Metaphysics* and to a degree, that chain of reasoning comes yo an end, but also according to Kant ... – Mozibur Ullah Oct 10 '21 at 01:48
  • @Double Knot: ... there is an irreducible minimum that does not and hence is subject to indefinitely evidenced reasoning, that is dialectically. – Mozibur Ullah Oct 10 '21 at 01:49
  • As for types of monad [here](https://iep.utm.edu/lei-mind/) is another reference *One crucial aspect of Leibniz’s panpsychism is that in addition to the rational monad that is the soul of a human being, there are non-rational, bare monads everywhere in the human being’s body.* For me whether Socrate's dialectic or Hegel's dialectic, it's simply an often effective method to find the ultimate truth. For example, Q&A type is not optimal for philosophy compared to a technical definitive solution like math, we most progress and clear confusions through dialogues (via comments here), nothing deep... – Double Knot Oct 10 '21 at 01:56
  • So in my type theory interpretation, either Parmendine's monism or Spinoza's ethics monism is possible and conceivable but won't be popular among most people who ontically commit to perceived different typed terms reasonably via common senses. But if somehow a theory of everything can be realized as a term of an ultimate all-inclusive master type, then Parmendine's philosophy can be fully appreciated, but this must be extremely hard and challenging... – Double Knot Oct 10 '21 at 02:12
  • @Double Knot: Are you a trained mathematician? You obviously fetishise mathematics and see it as an 'optimal' form of thought mathematics is a good in itself and is fruitful when it sticks to itself but as many philosophers (and mathematicians) have pointed out, mathematics is not 'optimal' for philosophy or the the questions of life. This is contra Wittgenstein who thought all questions of life can be reduced to logic applied to language. Not so. Comparing Wittgenstein to Plato shows how much he leaves out. He leaves out *nous*, that is intellect: this freedom, dury, obligation, love ... – Mozibur Ullah Oct 10 '21 at 02:14
  • @Double Knot: ... beauty. These are vastly important areas of life. Your idea of life is vastly reductive if you suggest that philosophy can be reduced to mathematics. Or even that a Q&A forum ought to be solely devoted to technical problems in mathematics. There are good questions that can be asked in philosophy, but first one must be acquainted with philosophy and this does not mean a superficial acquaintance with it's terminology ... but a greater, sympathetic engagement with its aims and practises - as well as its thought. – Mozibur Ullah Oct 10 '21 at 02:18
  • @Double Knot: Your 'my type theory interpretation' is just that, yours. Do you have a reference backing up this research direction by a well-respected figure in philosophy? Or failing that, do you have a doctorate in philosophy? Because it is at this stage of one's education that one begins to make constructive contributions to philosophy? If so, where and when and who was your supervisor and what was your thesis on? – Mozibur Ullah Oct 10 '21 at 02:22

2 Answers2

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You can interpret the wave equation as expressing this. There is only 'possibility' everywhere, and it becomes more '[thing]like' some places than others for various values of [thing].

Or, focussing upon virtual particles, there is a field of [thing]iness and anti-[thing]iness that is uniformly balanced almost everywhere, but when they are out of balance we notice [thing]s or anti-[thing]s. Electrons are not items in space they are places where the wave-mediums of electrons and positrons are not balanced.

From such perspective, a field becoming stronger or weaker in different places is only apparent motion, like the sequenced flashing lights that point the way to a casino doorway. Nothing moves, the light just gets more intense in one place and less intense in another.

So this rescues both Parmenides intuition and the actual motion we see. But isn't it just linguistic trickery to dodge the weakness of our basic intuitions of particle, wave and field? The infinite wait for the elusive graviton notwithstanding, we know that they are all of a piece somehow, but that each intuition fails in its own way.

The field component's weakest fit for bosons is obviously quantization. Electrical field theory predicts the occasional partial electron. Electrons cannot come in just any size, like photons.

But for leptons like photons, it saddles us with all of the thinking about aether that preceded Relativity. The field should be borne by something that acts rigid to some degree. There should either be an intrinsic push-back against propagating change in the field too quickly, or there should not. But space acts otherwise for leptons: It resists being driven too fast, but does not begin to resist until right then.

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Parmenides is just wrong. His argument doesn't work because it takes as a premise that things don't change (by badly abusing the notion of "something from nothing", and possibly also because of what counts as a distinct object). It's not, to my mind, even interestingly wrong (unlike, say, Zeno's paradox).

So, yes, fields, or the components of Descartes' hydrodynamical universe, would be subject to the same flawed reasoning. The solution is simple: don't make that mistake when reasoning!

Rex Kerr
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  • He doesn't take as a *premise* that things don't change; that's his *conclusion*. – Mozibur Ullah Mar 30 '15 at 14:46
  • In Platos *Parmenides*, Socrates remarks that Zeno just provides the contrapositive to Parmenides argument - so, in a sense not something new; so if one likes Zeno, one ought to like Parmenides; but you're in good company - Aristotle just dismisses Parmenides argument out of hand too saying that 'a principle of no change cannot be a principle of Nature, which is about determining change'. – Mozibur Ullah Mar 30 '15 at 15:07
  • @MoziburUllah - The arguments that I've seen smuggle that "conclusion" into the definition of "something from nothing". Basically, premise: "a change is something from nothing". Premise: "you can't have something from nothing". "Conclusion: there is no change". It's _really_ dull. Is there a version where the premises are not so obviously chosen to yield the "conclusion"? – Rex Kerr Mar 30 '15 at 16:57
  • @kerr:Parmenides protagonist is Thales who concieved the all as water ie as a fluid which fills space without gaps; Kant points out a fluid has parts which are in motion (or Hydrodynamics as above); Parmenides shows that without gaps there can be no motion; one can't understand Parmenides without understanding who he's arguing against. – Mozibur Ullah Mar 30 '15 at 17:07
  • Simply because there is no motion does not mean there cannot be change; a different argument developed by Barbour gives a theory of the world that is timeless but again this does not mean that there is no change. – Mozibur Ullah Mar 30 '15 at 17:13
  • @MoziburUllah - Can you link to or quote the _precise_ argument you are referencing, because it seems that I am familiar with a rather different argument (about motion) also attributed to Parmenides. – Rex Kerr Mar 30 '15 at 19:11