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Speaking of Functional harmony; If a song is in key C, then we call the C major scale from E to E is a Phrygian mode. Good, what if a song is in key Am, which is actually relative of C and also Am scale can be called aeolian here) what happens?

I mean if somewhere in the song we want to play a Phrygian in key of Am, are we going to play the same (from E to E) notes as we played as if we were in key of C ? Or let me put it other way; In key of Am and the the tonal center is in Em is that correct to play the Phrygian there?

Shevliaskovic
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Spring
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2 Answers2

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Let me rephrase your question:
Is the set of notes used for the E phrygian scale the same as the set of notes used for the A natural minor (or A aeolian) scale?

Answer: Yes.

Ulf Åkerstedt
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Well yes, but it won't make any sense.

All of the modes you've mentioned are diatonic to C major. That means that regardless of the tonal center, you're only playing natural notes that also exist in the C major scale.

When you're playing music in a given key, you are tonicizing one note over another. Meaning, the "Do", or tonic note exists in your melodic line the same as it would in your harmony (as a I chord). When you play E phrygian, you are tonicizing E. The notes are the same as those in C major, but if the rest of the music is tonicizing C, then playing a line tonicizing E is not going to make a whole lot of sense!

You should think about modes not as different starting points on a scale, but as different alterations to a scale. If you're playing a piece of music in A minor, you might play an A phrygian solo over a pedal tone, but the notes are not going to be diatonic to C major or A minor! You will alter the 2nd of A minor, by flatting it. The notes will be diatonic to F major starting on A, but realize that F doesn't really have anything to do with the music you are playing--that's just one way to figure out what notes are in a mode.

The other way of figuring out which notes are in a mode is by learning the scale alterations. This will clarify other things for you as well. The simplest examples are lydian, where the 4th note of the major scale is raised; mixolydian, where the 7th note of the major scale is lowered, or dorian, where the 3rd and the 7th of the major scale are flatted. You already know Aeolian/natural minor, where the 3rd, 6th, and 7th notes of the major scale are flatted.

This question/answer will be helpful to you: https://music.stackexchange.com/a/6890/133

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NReilingh
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  • Why not make any sense to play E Phrygian over am key? Isnt that's what modes for, as long as I emphasis the Em chord tones during e Pygrigan – Spring Aug 14 '12 at 20:35
  • If you emphasize the Em chords, then you aren't playing in Am anymore, you've changed keys to E. – NReilingh Aug 15 '12 at 02:36
  • please read the question well, "In key of Am and the tonal center is in Em is that correct to play the Pyhrigan there?" – Spring Aug 15 '12 at 08:04
  • My point is that if your tonal center is different from your "key", the "key" doesn't matter. The other point is that you shouldn't be choosing to play modes just based on what's diatonic to your key signature. That's a convenience-based decision, not a musical one. – NReilingh Aug 15 '12 at 22:05
  • please..what you are saying is the context of the music and its key, "does not matter" how is that possible? what you are saying "might" be true in modal harmony where chords in the progression are unrelated but not in functional harmony – Spring Aug 16 '12 at 07:38
  • Btw, I do not mean to imply that "you know it wrong", instead you look very knowledgeable, but my feeling is that we are talking about different things. – Spring Aug 16 '12 at 08:01
  • If what you are calling the "key" and "tonal center" are different things, then one of them is not relevant unless you are doing something with bitonality (and I'm pretty sure we are not). If I am writing a piece in C major and the bridge is in G you will usually not bother writing a completely new key signature for the bridge--but the music is still in G. The concept of C major is no longer relevant for the music in that bridge except for notational concerns (there will be F#s in the music instead of in the key signature)--and we should not be considering notation at all in this situation. – NReilingh Aug 16 '12 at 14:25
  • So for the situation you are asking about, the answers to the questions "What key is the music in?", "What is the tonal center?", and "What is the tonic?" should all be the same. And, in order for it to make sense to play E phyrigian over it, it's probably going to be some kind of E minor key. We're also completely ignoring what this actually sounds like--not knowing what exact notes you're playing, does it actually sound musical when you play it? If it does, chances are you're correct and we're just experiencing difficulty in communication what you're actually doing. – NReilingh Aug 16 '12 at 16:04
  • Last try, question is very simple and no need to over-complicate or think deep; Song is Am, you have a chords progression, and one chord in this progression is Em, So if song was in a "major" key, meaning (A but not Am) I would know which mode applies to which chord in that progression.But if that's a minor key (Am), then how can i know which mode applies for given chord like "Em"? SO I "thought" Am is already relative to C major, and if I were playing Em in a C progression that would be E phyrigan!SO even my key is Am I could treat it as if it was its relative Major and find the mode to play. – Spring Aug 17 '12 at 09:06
  • Yes; that's correct--the mode on E diatonic to A natural minor is going to be Phrygian. That was literally the first two words of my answer. :-) I just can't see how it would make musical sense to apply modes that way, and we'd really have to hear what you're doing in context in order to evaluate that. – NReilingh Aug 17 '12 at 16:05
  • at 2.18 he tells something, trying to figure out that structure http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNsccTEmIPg – Spring Aug 18 '12 at 21:12
  • so you can listen this and evaluate if its right or wrong :) – Spring Aug 18 '12 at 21:19
  • I'm with NReilingh, context is the music. And music includes: MELODY, RHYTHM, AND HARMONY. So remember rhythm is just as important. Your key, yea, ok, is written down. But tonal center takes Rhythm into account by like, A LOT. – Rene Marcelo Aug 19 '12 at 00:33
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    @Spring: Yngwie is playing the notes of an A **harmonic** minor scale which uses the same note material as E **dominant** phrygian (or E mixolydian b2 b6) scale. – Ulf Åkerstedt Aug 19 '12 at 18:09
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    @Ulf is completely correct. I find that guitar players tend to confuse the issue of modes since they spend so much time practicing scale permutations. What Yngwie is playing there is not what I would necessarily call modal--he's in A harmonic minor, but starting on E in order to play over a V-I resolution. He's not tonicizing E--rather, E has dominant function in that context. It would only really be modal playing if E was being fully tonicized. – NReilingh Aug 20 '12 at 03:47
  • tnx good answer, but what is "being fully tonicized" ? and what you mean by "modal playing" is using modal harmony? I hope not – Spring Aug 20 '12 at 08:00
  • This comment thread is already too long--please ask other questions or pop into chat if you're confused about something else. – NReilingh Aug 21 '12 at 03:27