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Two measure excerpt

Here from the given notes, I think this is a 6/4 time signature. But I am very confused due to the rest and the note placement. Any suggestions or directions would be appreciated.

QUESTION EDIT

another two measure excerpt

So on following your comments and way of analyzing then is this time signature for the above piece 4/8?

Elements in Space
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Swaraj
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  • It looks like 3/2, but basic analysis questions are off topic here. – PiedPiper Nov 03 '21 at 18:17
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    Probably 2/4 for the newly added excerpt. – Aaron Nov 03 '21 at 19:27
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    The new example is very different, and in my opinion makes the answer hard. Perhaps you'd like to ask a broader question, *how do you determine a complex meter*? In which case, two warnings: 1) time signature is [not the same thing as meter](https://music.stackexchange.com/a/118295/78419), and 2) there could be situations where you can't guess either for sure just by looking at the notes. You can often rule out some possibilities, but the only way to determine the time signature for sure is by looking at where it is printed. – Andy Bonner Nov 03 '21 at 19:44
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    That's why @Aaron says the new excerpt is *probably* 2/4. We're guessing that mainly because the notes are beamed in quarter note groups, and because there's little reason ever to use 4/8. But a perverse composer might have done so, and there's no evidence to rule it out for sure. – Andy Bonner Nov 03 '21 at 19:45
  • @AndyBonner What happens if these 2 are different excerpts? – Swaraj Nov 03 '21 at 19:49
  • They must be, aren't they? If they're from the same work, it has definitely changed time signature between the two (this is what I meant by "we can rule out some possibilities"!). – Andy Bonner Nov 03 '21 at 19:52
  • @AndyBonner Yes they are – Swaraj Nov 03 '21 at 19:56
  • I stand by my earlier comment: the only sure way to determine a time signature is to look at where it is printed. Perhaps you're looking to know more about the rules of thumb that help us narrow down these guesses? That would be, to understand more about how various meters (simple triple, compound duple, etc). Your original excerpt is complicated by having multiple voices; see https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/53041/too-many-notes-in-this-measure and its duplicate questions. – Andy Bonner Nov 03 '21 at 20:01
  • @AndyBonner a possible point of confusion is that it is entirely possible for these two excerpts to be from different movements of the same piece, or indeed from distinct sections of the same movement, but in light of the baroque style the first possibility is somewhat unlikely (because of the key change) and the second is very unlikely (because of the meter change). – phoog Nov 03 '21 at 21:02
  • Isn't the first excerpt Bach (48 preludes and fugues: F major, book 2)? If so its in 3/2. I suspect the second one is also from that collection but I don't actually recognixe it. – JimM Nov 04 '21 at 15:05

2 Answers2

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It's a simple triple meter, so it would be more likely to be written as 3/2. Pay attention to the direction of the note stems, as those indicate multiple voices on the same staves.

This is a 4 voice composition, with soprano in the treble clef with upwards note stems, alto with downwards notes, tenor in the bass clef with upwards note stems, and bass at the bottom.

With that knowledge, you can pick out which rests belong to which voices, although the typesetting in this example is quite good and everything lines up well.

dissemin8or
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The excerpt is written in 6/4 (or, more probably, as pointed out by @dissemin8or, 3/2) time, but the visual complexity of the multiple voices can make things confusing to sort out.

As starting point regarding multiple voices, see Rest above a note in a piano piece

To help clarify the time signature, here are the voices all written separately.

Piano rewritten as SATB

And just for kicks, here's a colorized version.

Piano voices in color

UPDATE:

The newly added excerpt is most likely in 2/4. A composer who specifically wanted 4/8 would most likely separate every eighth note to emphasize the "4 beats per measure" aspect, rather than beaming them.

Aaron
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  • So we consider it as 6/4 and 3/2, or is there just one correct answer ? @Aaron – Swaraj Nov 03 '21 at 18:42
  • that minim rest suggests it is 3/2 and not 6/4 – Elements in Space Nov 03 '21 at 18:55
  • @Swaraj There will be one correct answer, but from those two bars alone, it's hard to tell which it is. My guess would be 3/2. – Simon B Nov 03 '21 at 18:55
  • I agree with @SimonB. An educated guess is that the piece was composed in 3/2, but the definitive answer would be to look up the score and see what it says. – Aaron Nov 03 '21 at 19:17
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    @Swaraj it's definitely 3/2. This answer is incorrect. See how there is a half note or a whole note every four eighth notes? By contrast, there is no long note in the middle of either measure. If it were 6/4 then the E and the A that are here written as whole notes would instead be written as quarter notes tied to dotted half notes. Also note how the beaming of the eighth notes breaks across the middle of the 6/4 measure in this answer, but it does not do so in the question. – phoog Nov 03 '21 at 19:17
  • @phoog So based on that is the edited portion in the question also correct? – Swaraj Nov 03 '21 at 19:28
  • @SimonB How about the newly edited question? Is that still correct? – Swaraj Nov 03 '21 at 19:44
  • @ElementsinSpace How about the newly edited question? Is that still correct? – Swaraj Nov 03 '21 at 19:45
  • @Aaron How about the newly edited question? Is that still correct? – Swaraj Nov 03 '21 at 19:45
  • @Swaraj I would agree that your second excerpt is probably in 2/4. – Elements in Space Nov 03 '21 at 20:00
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    @Swaraj it might be a good idea to remove the second example and ask a new question about it. Changing questions so drastically after they've been answered is confusing. – phoog Nov 03 '21 at 21:05