Why use 5 or more ledger lines below the bass clef instead of ottava bassa lines for piano sheet music?

Question

One thing that has bothered me when listening to classical music with the sheet music also scrolling by is its persistent use of 5 or more ledger lines for low enough bass clef parts instead of ottava bassa lines.

Examples (all pulled from public domain scores on IMSLP):

Camille Saint-Saëns's Prélude et fugue, F minor, Op. 52, No. 3 - published by Paris: Durand, n.d. Plate D. & F. 2339. Reissue (new engraving) - ca.1900

Sergei Rachmaninoff's Prelude in C Sharp Minor, Op. 3, No. 2

Frédéric Chopin's Prelude in C Minor, Op. 28, No. 20

I find this use of 5 or more ledger lines below the bass clef to both be less readable than ottava bassa lines and against the tendency for notes above the treble clef to use ottava alta lines instead of 5 or more ledger lines. (At least, I've found notes above the treble clef to much more commonly be found with ottava alta lines instead of 5 or more ledger lines.)

Examples of ottava alta lines for notes above the treble clef instead of 5 or more ledger lines...or even fewer ledger lines than 5 (again, all pulled from public domain scores on IMSLP):

Camille Saint-Saëns's Prélude et fugue, F minor, Op. 52, No. 3 - from the exact same score as the other excerpt from that piece:

Franz Liszt's Tarantelle di bravura d’après la tarantelle de La muette de Portici, S.386

Franz Liszt's Grand galop chromatique, S.219

Why does this double standard regarding the use of ottava lines vs. ledger lines exist? Why are notes with 5 or more ledger lines so much more common below the bass clef than above the treble clef? Why don't publishers pick exactly one, more readable standard and stick to it?

In each of the cases cited, the left hand is in octaves. This is generally easy to see. On the other hand, the right hand parts are much more complex and varied, so having the staff available is especially helpful. — Aaron, Mar 08 '21 at 06:21
@Aaron - I've honestly found those octaves with 5 or more ledger lines to be less readable than just using ottava lines. Counting out the ledger lines and deducing notes from there has been a slight pain. — Dekkadeci, Mar 08 '21 at 06:33
I recognize the basis for your question. Leaving aside the "why", there are two things that help me with these bass passages: 1) recognizing the visual "size" of an octave and 2) once I see a series of octaves, reading the upper note and/or reading by melodic intervals. I had similar problems as you describe, and these two elements all but eliminated the issues. — Aaron, Mar 08 '21 at 06:40
Gestalt perception. In your first example, looking at the shape of the score tells me immediately that the two C octaves are an octave apart. If the lower one were notated with ottava lines, it would become a nightmare of calculating and second-guessing. — Kilian Foth, Mar 08 '21 at 07:20
I agree that these low notes are easy to read because they include the note an octave above which is easy to read. String players are used to reading 5 or more leger lines above the stave, and tuba players the same below the stave. You just get used to reading them with time and exposure. — Jomiddnz, Mar 08 '21 at 08:11
There seems to be an assumption in the question that using ottava makes things "more readable". And it may be true for the OP but perhaps not for everybody. The examples cited don't seem that hard to read to me, although if they were not actually octaves then it might be harder I suppose. — JimM, Mar 08 '21 at 09:53
@KilianFoth - I've played the first score multiple times before, and each time, discovering that those lowest notes are an octave apart has **not** been immediate. Even reading it now, I much prefer ottava lines - **now** reading that notes are an octave apart is immediate. — Dekkadeci, Mar 08 '21 at 15:01
When I see something like that, I try to figure out if the interval between the higher note and the low one is constant and, if so, I just ignore the low note reading because I know it's there. But, without the top note, for me it would be significantly harder to read. — Thomas, Mar 08 '21 at 20:08
Related: https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/111854/is-there-any-official-semi-official-standard-for-music-symbol-visual-appearance — Todd Wilcox, Mar 14 '21 at 16:49

Laurence · Answer 1 · 2021-03-09T15:13:04.773

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Let's look at your first example, the Saint-Saëns.

Yes, if there was ONLY the lowest C, it would be difficult to read and an 8vab line would help. But the higher C, on just two ledger lines, is easy to read, as is the octave interval. So we can allow the music to retain the correct 'shape' with low notes LOOKING low - this also is an important factor in readability.

The same principle applies to all your other examples. There's an 'easy' (few or no ledger lines) to give us our bearings coupled with an easily detected octave interval.

A, below, is arguably better written as B. But C is easy to read, easier than D because it shows where the notes are physically.

edited Mar 09 '21 at 15:13

answered Mar 08 '21 at 11:54

Laurence

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the logic of choosing between these four options is explained and illustrated very clearly – Michael Curtis Mar 08 '21 at 14:55
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What the? I still find D easier to read than C. – Dekkadeci Mar 08 '21 at 15:08
I wonder if it would have been useful to have a convention that the third through seventh ledger lines be shown wider than the first two? The wider ledger lines would then correspond to the lines of the staff to which they are attached, but separated by two octaves. – supercat Mar 08 '21 at 15:33
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+1 for pointing out that there are multiple factors at work. An ottava line is good for avoiding very remote note heads if there is nothing to relate them to. But interrupting a longer line that *contains* individual remote notes is usually counterproductive. – Kilian Foth Mar 09 '21 at 09:39
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What I find lacking in these examples is they are isolated measures. The question of whether to use an octave mark or not is largely context dependent. If the surrounding measures are also very low, then marking a whole phrase an octave down is easy to read. If the surrounding measures are linked in a phrase with the lowest notes and descent downwards or ascend upwards from the lowest notes, then an octave mark may make it harder to read. So it is with the examples in the question - the context is important. – Todd Wilcox Mar 09 '21 at 20:28
@Dekkadeci I think your comment here explains a lot: It seems like many pianists and publishers have an easier time reading C versus D (including myself), and so that explains why you are seeing publishers notate more like C than D. The fact that you prefer D unfortunately makes you an unusual case. You could either learn to read notation like C more easily or you could make transcriptions of works that you are playing to make them easier to read. Either way, the answer to "why C instead of D?" is that many others prefer it. – Todd Wilcox Mar 09 '21 at 20:39
@ToddWilcox - With the context of Excerpt 2, I can definitely see using ottava lines on the LH C# octaves only, and for Excerpt 3, on all LH octaves that involves the G below the C 2 octaves below Middle C or lower. – Dekkadeci Mar 10 '21 at 12:51
@ToddWilcox - Additionally, why would those same readers prefer C over D and then not complain about how badly and/or inconsistently notated Excerpt 5 is? If they can easily read 5 ledger lines below the bass clef, surely they can easily read 4 ledger lines above the treble clef. – Dekkadeci Mar 10 '21 at 12:53
@Dekkadeci D may be easier to read than C in isolation, but when you have C1/C2 following C3/C4, the use of _8va bassa_ on only the lower notes obscures the two-octave distance. Using it on the entire bass staff results in excessively many ledger lines on the C4, which would have to be notated as C5. – phoog Jun 21 '22 at 19:54

score 14 · Answer 2 · answered Mar 08 '21 at 12:54

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First, musicians should learn to read lots of ledger lines. If you are frustrated by them, that’s an important thing to focus on for your studies until you can read them easily.

Second, it is harder to read music fluidly when the 8va or 8vb marks are very brief - a full measure is a good minimum to keep in mind (with some exceptions). You can’t see the flow of the music when the octave is frequently changing. In your third to last example, Camille Saint-Saëns's Prélude et fugue, F minor, Op. 52, No. 3, the 8va is poorly used, and I strongly suspect that was a decision made by the publisher to save space. The last two examples show entire passages played an octave higher than the treble clef. This is appropriate use of an octave sign.

Your first three examples would have to have overly brief 8vb marks that would hinder reading, not help it.

Finally, as Laurence Payne points out, in much of your examples, the lowest notes are parts of octaves played in the left hand, so you only have to read the higher note of the octave and then place your fourth or fifth finger an octave below your thumb.

answered Mar 08 '21 at 12:54

Todd Wilcox

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I passed my Royal Conservatory of Music Grade 10 piano performance and failed my ARCT with a score in the 70s. If reading 5 or more ledger lines was that essential, my piano teachers sure didn't pick up on that. – Dekkadeci Mar 08 '21 at 15:04
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Once again, I note that there is no good reason to use _8vb,_ because the "a" in _8va_ does not stand for _alta._ – phoog Mar 08 '21 at 16:16
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@phoog I don't disagree with you. Still, major publishers like Hal Leonard continue to use "8vb" to indicate octave below, even for recent works. I assume it's just one of those conventions that doesn't make sense but the fact that it doesn't make sense doesn't stop it from being popular. – Todd Wilcox Mar 09 '21 at 20:24
@phoog A German publisher, Schott, has decided that the "va" is unnecessary, but that the "b" clarifies which direction the octave is shifted. They use "8" above the staff with a line of octave up and "8b" below the staff for octave down. Seems like there's a consensus (for whatever reason) that the position of the mark and line is not sufficient to confirm the direction of octave shift. – Todd Wilcox Mar 09 '21 at 20:34
@ToddWilcox that publishers like Hal Leonard are willing to do violence to the Italian language does not make it right. Has anyone _ever_ written an octave transposition above the staff and indicated that it was a downward transposition by using "b" or any other means? Has anyone _ever_ done the opposite? It's a solution looking for a problem. The position of the mark was sufficient for a couple of centuries; I don't think we're that much less intelligent than our forebears. Does any Italian or other romance-language publisher follow HL or Schott? I doubt it; they know that a != alta. – phoog Mar 09 '21 at 21:15
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@phoog Maybe you should direct your views on the matter to Hal Leonard or Schott? – Todd Wilcox Mar 10 '21 at 01:27

score 14 · Answer 3 · answered Mar 08 '21 at 14:53

Read the top pitch of the bass part and then read the ledger lines below as intervals.

Ex. If I know that two ledger lines under the bass is C and then the interval under that C is a sixth, then I know the lower note is an E.

In your examples most of the reading by interval of the lower note is easy, because the interval is pretty consistently an octave. Below is how to do it. The red line traces the top of the bass, all the notes below are at the octave, except the two places where a perfect fifth is added inside the octave.

In blue I circled the two lowest occurrences, one with the top note on a line and the other on a space. Notice that the octave reading is a count of four lines. That's my quick way to recognize an octave.

It's so common to double at the octave in a bass part that you almost don't read it note for note. A quick spot check confirms a passage in doubled octaves.

Regarding too many ledger lines below the staff, it is not too many if you orient from the top bass note.

"It's so common to double at the octave...": absolutely. I wonder if there is any piece that has parallel sevenths, ninths, or tenths in this register. I'd be surprised. But if there is, I bet they are written over an ottava bassa instruction. Otherwise, players would tend to assume that they were octaves, because, indeed, one doesn't really read the bottom notes. — phoog, Jun 21 '22 at 20:00

Why use 5 or more ledger lines below the bass clef instead of ottava bassa lines for piano sheet music?

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